Beginner long distance shooter

I've recently gotten interested in long distance shooting (out to 1000 yards) - principally target shooting (not hunting at those ranges). My shooting experience to date has been pistols and semi-auto rifle range sessions with infrequent hunting trips. Distance wise, I can reach out to 300 yds with good consistency and accuracy.

My current setup is a Remington 700 SPS AAC-SD 20" 308 barrel mounted in a Magpul Hunter 700 stock with mag well upgrade, Timney trigger, Badger 20* rail, Badger knob, Primary Arms MIL 4-14x44 FFP scope (waiting for the Vortex AMG), Atlas PSR bipod, Silencerco brake and Omega silencer, and 3000 rounds of 168gr FGMM. Rifle shoots 3/4" MOA at 100yds. Haven't felt the need to accurize it yet but that may change.

With that much brass on hand (and wanting to be more accurate), I plan to handload but I principally buy over the counter for now. A thread topic for another day.

I also do a LOT of practice on a 10/22 (KIDD trigger, VQ barrel, Magpul X22 stock) then transfer those skills to the R700. It's a slow methodical process but rather enjoyable (and conserves ammo/$). I'm trying to do it right.

I'm a big believer in backup gear especially as the long distance ranges are hours from where I live. The easy answer would be to get the exact same gun (parts interchangeability is a big bonus). However I've read that 308 ballistics beyond 600 yds perform sub-par relative calibers such as 6.5 Creedmoor.

So my question is: if I'm buying a beginner long distance rifle as a spare, should I get another 308 rifle to backup my R700? Or should I think about getting a rifle in a caliber better suited to distance shooting such as 6.5 Creedmoor? I've been looking at the Ruger Precision Rifle (enhanced) and it seems like a good value. I could buy it in 308 and use it as a backup to my R700 (or vice versa) and then (easily) upgrade the barrel to a match grade 6.5 Creedmoor when I'm ready for longer ranges (I'd also convert my R700 so as to have a spare). I would do the gunsmithing work myself. Other than a SCAR17, I don't have any other 308 investments so switching to 6.5 Creedmoor wouldn't be an issue. Or should I just stick with 308?

Apologies for the long post!

OK, well take it from a guy that's been down that road, and there's quite a few accomplished LR shooters on this board that will probably chime in as well. But here's my take. It 100% depends on just how far down the rabbit hole you're planning on/willing to go. Are you looking at shooting some matches or is this just going to be for your own enjoyment? Trust me when I tell you, you'll learn far more in a single match shooting with those that are better at this game than you, than you will with thousands of rounds down range by yourself. Also going to a training course will be extremely beneficial, and we have some real good instructors in the area.

If it's just for fun/enjoyment or learning, you don't need a backup rifle and what you have now will be just fine, maybe add some upgrades down the road if you chose, and learn the rifle inside and out, and how to fix minor issues in the field.

If you see yourself going down the competition/match shooting road, skip the RPR, Savage, Trued up 700, etc and use your current rifle as a backup, you'll be money, time & energy ahead in a short time through the LR journey. Then find a reputable smith and have a rifle built for you on a high quality custom action (Bighorn, Surgeon, Impact, Defiance, etc) and have it put in a quality stock (Manners or McMillan) or chassis (AI, XLR, KRG, MPA, etc) , or go buy an AI and be done with it. That way if you ever decide to get out of it, you have something that will get a good portion of your money back, and if you decide to stay, you have something that will last a lifetime with the exception of barrels. Budget for top tier glass too (Schmidt & Bender, Kahles, Nightforce, Vortex Razor, etc) figure at least $2k. I'm not saying go out and buy this rig right now, go to a few matches, take a look at everything, and ask to get behind a few, most if not all the guys there will have no problem with this, just be respectful and explain your position, and you'll find most everybody willing to let you test drive their rifles a bit or at least sit in the drivers seat.


As for caliber, there's a reason there's a separate class in the PRS for 223/308 than everything else, the 308 is a distinct disadvantage in the wind and when you get out to longer distances (800+ yds). 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, 243 Win, 6 Creedmoor, 6XC, et all are far superior performers when the targets get a long ways away, small, or the wind kicks up. Perhaps the single biggest advantage of the lighter cartridges I've listed here and you will read about on line, is recoil management. In order to learn anything from 1 shot to the next, you need to be able to see your bullet either hit the target, or where it misses the target at, the less recoil you have the easier this is to see, and thereby correct for your next shot. This is why I train/practice with a 223, that and the ammo is a lot cheaper.

There was a time when I would have recommended an RPR, or a Savage or similar rifle for those looking to get into the game a bit, but the problem is that every person I've ever met that started to dabble in this, ultimately ends up going in much deeper, and wishing for something more and thereby spending more in the long run. You are already set up with a good rifle to start down this journey with, and the above mentioned options are just another one of what you have in a different flavor. If that's where your budget/comfort level is, then just shoot that barrel out, and when it's time for a new tube, have a good smith turn a barrel for you in your cartridge of choice.

Whatever you decide/do, DO NOT GO JUMP INTO A MAGNUM!!!!!!!!!! you'll find yourself limited in your learning, developing bad habits during long shooting sessions, and just burning a pile of money in the process. Magnum cartridges have no place in the initial learning phases of this game and cause new shooters far more problems than they ever cure. There's nothing inside of 1500 yards you can do with a 300 Win Mag, that you can't do with a 243 Winchester besides deliver tons of energy on target and beat the crap out of yourself with recoil. I own a 7mm WSM and while I've shot well over 6000 rounds in the last 6 months through my precision rifles, only about 20 of them have been through the big 7 and I wasn't having a ton of fun when I was shooting it.

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

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Originally Posted by Kilyung

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

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There are a few competent smith / shops in CO that can build to spec. Before you charge out waving cash in hand. A few LD and possibly high power shoots would be advised. Get out meeting shooters who can help steer you in the right direction will be more helpful, than the internet. Plus you'll be able to get some hands on with various rigs. That's something the web can never replicate.

Shawn really went the extra mile with his response, and his thoughts are spot-on. I'll expand on one area, what to do with your current rifle.

.308 is not ideal for a beginner. Ballistics aside, a beginner is going to have a very difficult time spotting impacts in anything but a pure prone position, and will probably have difficulty there, too. I can't overemphasize Shawns point that if you don't see your bullet hit you won't learn anything about shooting in the wind.

You're in a great position since you're not loading yet and I assume you're not highly invested in gear yet. Consider ditching that .308 barrel immediately and get it rebarreled in 6.5 Creed if you don't want to reload or one of the 6's if you're willing to start loading right away. If you're not an experienced loader, I'd start shooting with 6.5 Creed and buy match ammo from Prime Ammo or the like. After 500-1,000 rounds, you'll have a good sense of how accurate your rifle is with that ammo, so you'll have a good baseline for reloading. You'll also have a nice pile of brass to get you started. A custom barrel will have the further benefit of being more accurate than the factory tube. This is especially important to new shooters because when you miss you can rule out the gun.

Follow Shawns advice and start going to some of the many local matches available. You're learning pace will be hugely accelerated. You'll find the local guys very willing to help if you just ask.

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Originally Posted by Kilyung

Thanks for the well thought out response! Gave me a lot to chew on. I'm definitely going to attend a match in the future and will also look for classes. So it sounds like I should shoot the heck out of my existing rifle then relegate it to backup duty (maybe even customize it). I looked at the cost of customs and it's not unreasonable. Going to talk to GAP, AI, SAC to start - would be great if there's a reputable shop in Colorado.

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There are a couple, Mile high shooting does everything from custom builds to being the largest dealer/distributor of Accuracy international in the country And awesome people to boot, Gretan Rifles is also based in CO. Also to add to your list of possibles that I would highly recommend is TS Customs out of miller, SD, Perry Custom Gun out of OK, John Beanland, and Josh Kunz of Patriot Valley Arms, the list goes on and on.

The more I'm around it, the more I'm learning chambering a great shooting barrel isn't exactly Voodoo or Rocket science. It's about being patient and methodical in your setup and machining practices. Therefore outside of guys that are known to be bad actors in the business, I'd go for the guy that provides the best customer service and can actually get me a rifle/barrel/or whatever I'm after in the time frame he quotes instead of the usual 2 more weeks like (5 times over, etc).

As for some classes, Check out Colorado Precision Rifle. Brian is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, a great teacher and a hell of a shooter. He also teaches for JP enterprises and Thunderbeast

http://cprifle.com/

And yes, by no means am I advocating running out and waving cash in a smith's nose right off the bat. Do your research go to some local matches (there's a list in the shooting sports section here) figure out what works for you and then take the plunge. I'm just saying skip the ramp up from where you're at to the top in the equipment game, or at least minimize it, as that curve is a money burner.

I would also agree with Tim's suggestion of possibly just getting a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel spun on your action. Bare minimum I'd put a VERY effective Brake on the 308 and burn up the ammo you already own. But in all honesty, I'd go the 6.5 route and sell the rest of the GMM ammo you have to one of the millions of 308 purists out there on the interwebs. You should be able to effectively swap the ammo 1 for 1 from the 308 to 6.5 and you're only switching a barrel which in the big scheme of this game is a consumable and then at the end of this journey, you also have a backup rifle that's more capable as well.

Recoil management is the single biggest reason I shoot a 6mm, and it's a baby 6mm to boot (6BRX) Yes it's got a lot of other things going for it, (accuracy, bullets with great BC, cheaper bullets, etc) but the single biggest reason is that I can spot my impacts on pretty much any shot from any position (exception is unsupported positions) from 200 yards and out. I'm not exactly a little guy either, it's not about physical size or limitations, it's about learning or at least seeing what happened on every shot. Unfortunately right now there isn't much out there for factory 6mm cartridges of match quality, fortunately though 6.5 creedmoor is, and it's a huge step in the right direction and when you boil it all down there's not a ton more to be gained in that department by going to the 6mm, but there is some.

Dang XC. This should be stickied as advice for beginners. This is like a condensed version of years of money, mistakes, lessons learned and information. Good write up. Take his advice OP, you'll be well served.

Edit: I don't have experience with anything 6mm outside of 243 and still not alot there, but from what I've read the 6mm's tend to eat up barrels a little more quickly than 6.5's or 308's. A cost to consider, but he's absolutely correct about spotting your own misses, and the 6mm family excelling there. There's usually a speed limit on projectiles in matches, but it's much safer and easier to push the 6mm bullets to that limit, which means less time of flight for wind to affect the path of travel. But even if your shooting every weekend, it'll take a year to burn it out. So put a $20 in your safe every weekend and you'll have enough for a great barrel chambered by a great smith at the end of the year. Also, if you're like me and most guys shooting long range, you'll soon find it a necessity to load your own rounds. Start reading about reloading if you're competitive. And read about wind.

Agree on making this a sticky...learned a lot from the posts

Sounds like unless I'm willing to invest $4k or so, I should find another hobby.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Sounds like unless I'm willing to invest $4k or so, I should find another hobby.

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On glass you mean?

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Originally Posted by hghclsswhitetrsh

On glass you mean?

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Well, glass plus mount.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Sounds like unless I'm willing to invest $4k or so, I should find another hobby.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Well, glass plus mount.

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There's always the shooter who's upgrading to the $5K optic, looking to sell their $3-4 K for a good price. That's the only way i was able to get beck in to some distance shooting.

$4k on glass and mount is not necessary. Especially to get started. I know a lot of guys love the S&B scopes, but I don't actually care for them. The glass is amazingly clear, the reticle works, but there is something about looking through them that doesn't seem to work for me. My Steiners are noticeably more "comfortable" (bad word for it, but best I can come up with), and the time I have spent behind the Vortex scopes has also been very good.

For getting started, you can learn with a $300 Super Sniper fixed 10x. Quite a few guys I know have started there, and shot to 1k yds, and then upgraded. They also sold their super sniper for not much less than new price when they upgraded.

The Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27 is a phenomenal scope, and it with a Spurh mount, top of the line but not necessary, would be under $3k. The Vortex with good rings would be mid $2k.

The big thing with scopes, that I have found, is CALL the vendors for the scope you want. They all list the scope at the same price that is usually set by the manufacturer, but they all have ways of making the sale a little better.

Also, look used on here, ARFCOM, Snipershide, and the like. Not long ago Great Kazoo had a fantastic deal on a Steiner 5-25 on here. You could have had that with a good set of rings for quite a bit less than $2k. I've seen several Gen 1 Razors listed on here in the last few months. Also sub $2k.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

Sounds like unless I'm willing to invest $4k or so, I should find another hobby.

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Not at all, but if you're going to go the competition route and do it even semi-seriously, then yes you will need to spend big money, it's not a cheap sport to compete in. For example I have over $7500 wrapped up in my primary rifle and optic, as well as about the same amount into my secondary one, then there's probably another $5k in ancillary equipment. Then consider I've completely shot out 3 barrels already this year with over 5000 rounds down range between matches and practice in my bolt guns, and you'll see why I say what I do. Simply put, a Savage, RPR, etc won't ever hold up AND PERFORM to this level over much more than a season or 2 and your money is much better spent going for the best gear right out of the gate.

It all depends on what you're looking to do with LR shooting. Like I told the OP if it's just for your own enjoyment a factory rifle with sufficient glass to do what you want to do is more than enough, and there's no good reason to invest in second rig of the same class for doing that as a backup to save a trip to the range. It's too much investment for the return, unless you just have a penchant for having quantity over quality.

I just highly advise that for those looking to go down the competitive road, to skip the middle section of building up slowly, as it costs a hell of a lot more money in the long run. BTDT and nearly every person I know in the competitive side of this wishes someone would have told them this, or at least that they had listened when someone did.

I started out with a Trued up Rem 700 with a good barrel in an AI Chassis with a Vortex Razor Gen1 on it, That rifle cost me roughly $4k to put together. It did just fine, was not a limitation on my learning curve etc, then I built a second rifle on another trued up 700 but with a few more upgrades and that cost about the same amount as the first plus about $800, but had a different chassis and scope and chambered in a different cartridge. Then I sold the first one and finally built one on a custom action for my primary rifle, then upgraded glass to a top tier scope, and then built a 223 trainer, then sold the second 700 and built another rifle on another custom action, and bought another top tier scope. Through the long line up upgrading and selling, I've lost enough $ on rifles/parts/gear, that I could have paid for one of the 2 custom built rifles or one of the scopes I now own free and clear.

OR and here's the big one, that could have paid for another barrel, and all the ammo through it that would have made me a better shooter. Long story short, buy once, cry once if you have any plans whatsoever of shooting Long Range competitively.

Can you go shoot local matches, have a good time at the range, etc without taking out a second mortgage? Absolutely, and for doing that a stock 700, RPR, Savage 10 or 12 LRP is more than enough. But like I said, it all depends on what you really want to do and how far down the rabbit hole you are wanting/willing to go.

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Originally Posted by Calculated

Dang XC. This should be stickied as advice for beginners. This is like a condensed version of years of money, mistakes, lessons learned and information. Good write up. Take his advice OP, you'll be well served.

Edit: I don't have experience with anything 6mm outside of 243 and still not alot there, but from what I've read the 6mm's tend to eat up barrels a little more quickly than 6.5's or 308's. A cost to consider, but he's absolutely correct about spotting your own misses, and the 6mm family excelling there. There's usually a speed limit on projectiles in matches, but it's much safer and easier to push the 6mm bullets to that limit, which means less time of flight for wind to affect the path of travel. But even if your shooting every weekend, it'll take a year to burn it out. So put a $20 in your safe every weekend and you'll have enough for a great barrel chambered by a great smith at the end of the year. Also, if you're like me and most guys shooting long range, you'll soon find it a necessity to load your own rounds. Start reading about reloading if you're competitive. And read about wind.

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On the subject of 6mm's , yes typically the barrels don't last all that long, I've completely shot out 3 different 6X47 Lapua Barrels in the last year and went about half way through another before selling the barreled action to another forum member here. That cartridge has a typical life of around 1400 rounds. There are some other options though. Hoser shoots a lot of 6mm Competition Match witch is an improved 243 Win and by virtue of it's case capacity allows both great velocity and barrel life by using a slower burning powder (H1000 in this case), pretty sure he's seeing somewhere around 3000 rounds on a barrel, I'm sure he'll chime in here at some point and can expand on that. Then there's the 6BRX which I shoot now and I expect a total round count of about 2000 rounds per barrel including break in, fire forming, and load development which should provide me with at least 1500 match quality rounds from a barrel and 6 Dasher is VERY similar.

For comparison a 260 Remington or a 6.5 Creedmoor typically last about 3000 rounds give or take.

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Originally Posted by XC700116

Not at all, but if you're going to go the competition route and do it even semi-seriously, then yes you will need to spend big money, it's not a cheap sport to compete in. For example I have over $7500 wrapped up in my primary rifle and optic, as well as about the same amount into my secondary one, then there's probably another $5k in ancillary equipment. Then consider I've completely shot out 3 barrels already this year with over 5000 rounds down range between matches and practice in my bolt guns, and you'll see why I say what I do. Simply put, a Savage, RPR, etc won't ever hold up AND PERFORM to this level over much more than a season or 2 and your money is much better spent going for the best gear right out of the gate.

It all depends on what you're looking to do with LR shooting. Like I told the OP if it's just for your own enjoyment a factory rifle with sufficient glass to do what you want to do is more than enough, and there's no good reason to invest in second rig of the same class for doing that as a backup to save a trip to the range. It's too much investment for the return, unless you just have a penchant for having quantity over quality.

Can you go shoot local matches, have a good time at the range, etc without taking out a second mortgage? Absolutely, and for doing that a stock 700, RPR, Savage 10 or 12 LRP is more than enough. But like I said, it all depends on what you really want to do and how far down the rabbit hole you are wanting/willing to go.

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Perfect answer. I'll never have the time to actually compete competitively, or practice that much, but I do like shooting for fun and would shoot local matches.

I'm willing and able to get a Savage in .260, toss it in a chassis and put a Burris XTR II on top. I'd likely never shoot the barrel out with my schedule, especially if I keep shooting for-fun 3 gun, too.

Shawn's insight is spot on, Particularly for the shooter who knows they will go the distance and be all-in at some point. My path has been nearly identical to his, and his advice is extremely sound.

For the unsure, the dabbler, the "for now" hobbiest, the alternative is to invest a little today and spend a bunch more down the road. If I were advising a brand new shooter who had no confidence they would end up neck deep in this game, I'd suggest a Ruger in .243 if you reload or 6.5 Creed if you don't. Add a Burris XTR II and all-in you'll be in the game for $2,500.

Is this the best solution? No way! Is it a reasonable solution for a guy who's unsure if this is a long time addiction or just a fad? Absolutely. Only you can determine the best course. Knowing what I know now, I wish I'd listened to the voices that said to spend the big dollars up front. On the other hand, $6k to $7K, all at once, would have been a sufficient deterrent way back when that it would have kept me out of the game and I'd never have given it a shot.

My best advice, when you distill it down, is to spend every penny you have to get started. Every dollar spent on glass and guns is well spent. Every dollar saved is likely pissed away. Spend what you've got and enjoy yourself. It's a very rewarding pastime, regardless of how much you invest. Just know that each and every dollar you "save" will likely cost you $2 in the end.

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Originally Posted by Tim K

Shawn's insight is spot on, Particularly for the shooter who knows they will go the distance and be all-in at some point. My path has been nearly identical to his, and his advice is extremely sound.

For the unsure, the dabbler, the "for now" hobbiest, the alternative is to invest a little today and spend a bunch more down the road. If I were advising a brand new shooter who had no confidence they would end up neck deep in this game, I'd suggest a Ruger in .243 if you reload or 6.5 Creed if you don't. Add a Burris XTR II and all-in you'll be in the game for $2,500.

Is this the best solution? No way! Is it a reasonable solution for a guy who's unsure if this is a long them addiction or just a fad? Absolutely. Only you can determine the best course. Knowing what I know now, I wish I'd listened to the voices that said to spend the big dollars up front. On the other hand, $6k to $7K, all at once, would have been a sufficient deterrent way back when that it would have kept me out of the game and I'd never have given it a shot.

My best advice, when you distill it down, is to spend every penny you have to get started. Every dollar spent on glass and guns is well spent. Every dollar saved is likely pissed away. Spend what you've got and enjoy yourself. It's a very rewarding pastime, regardless of how much you invest. Just know that each and every dollar you "save" will likely cost you $2 in the end.

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Tim sums it up better than I do, I tend to get a bit long winded (shocking right hahaha) But the last paragraph here pretty much sums up the entire idea of what I've been trying to convey.

BTW ^^^^ He's the crack dealer that gave me my first taste of this game and it's been full tilt ever since.

I'm just starting to dabble in the longer range and I have a ruger precision rifle in .308. Works amazing. Ive been able to hit 18x18 steel at 600 yards decently consistent during my last trip to the range. Not bad for only my second time giving it a try. Eventually I'll need to move to shooting paper where I can see exactly where my shots are hitting and how tight of a group but for now, its just fun to bang some steel.

I was able to get a Steiner scope (3-15x) via this forum for a great deal. Most expensive optic I've ever had but its been well worth it. Super clear glass and the reticle is easy. I could use a little higher power but my range only goes to 600 so its fine for what I use. Eventually, I'd like to get something in the 20x+ but that's down the road.

Good optics and good guns will never be a waste of money.

Lots of good advice above.

Here's a good deal on a barreled action to build on ;) https://www.ar-15.co/threads/158208-...dmoor-For-Sale

Also HIGHLY recommend Brian Whalen's classes. Great instructor, great shooter, super nice, and he is local.

http://www.scout.com/military/sniper...s-review-wy-co

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Originally Posted by stevenc23

Lots of good advice above.

Here's a good deal on a barreled action to build on ;) https://www.ar-15.co/threads/158208-...dmoor-For-Sale

Also HIGHLY recommend Brian Whalen's classes. Great instructor, great shooter, super nice, and he is local.

http://www.scout.com/military/sniper...s-review-wy-co

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Dude, If I hadn't spent pretty much every spare penny I have on that last scope I just bought, I'd have snapped up that barreled action the day you put it up, just for the action and probably would have burned through the rest of the barrel for practice.

BTW anyone in the market ^^^^ This is a damn fine action and barrel combo, don't let the barrel nut setup dissuade you.

Wow. Lots of great advice. I will be signing up for classes then attending some matches before committing to a platform. Most definitely will be buying (crying) once.

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Originally Posted by Rucker61

How would you compare the RPR to say a Savage 10T in 6.5C dropped into an MDT chassis? Seems they'd be about the same price.

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Like Mark said, if PRS is a thought, RPR is the better option due to the production class possibility, unless you wanted to shoot the savage in stock trim.

That said, I'd go with the RPR anyway just because it's a better investment, It's one of the few guns in that class that you won't lose hardly any money on weather you decide it's not for you, or if you decide to sell it and upgrade. They are the hot ticket for the new shooter right now in a sport that's taking off like 3 gun did in the 90's so the resale is both good and typically extremely fast, so if you buy it right, you won't lose much if anything.


As for the other part of the debate, I've seen both rifles absolutely hammer, and I've seen folks fight with accuracy on both. Sometimes you get lucky and the rifle loves a certain factory ammo, but factory ammo being the best load for any given rifle is rare. I've gone through many barrels chambered by the same reamer and made from the same blanks with sequential serial numbers and have yet to find 2 that shoot their best with exactly the same load. It always takes a touch of tweaking.

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

Having shot the Savage head to head with the Ruger, there is no comparison. The RPRs were shooting half the group size with the same ammo.

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Agree with Tim and Shawn. Only thing that proves is that the RPR liked that ammo better. Both rifles are capable of shooting very well. The key is either to hand load or find a factory load that any given barrel likes.

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Originally Posted by MarkCO

Yeah, just use any old barrel and find the load it likes and all will be unicorns and rainbows...hogwash. Better barrels shoot better, end of story. If that was not true, then the better barrel makers would not be selling any to those of us who strive for the best accuracy. I also used to let myself be swayed by what people think they know about matching loads to specific barrels, but then I tested it. Having built 100s of .223 uppers with two specific barrels, at the same point in their life, they all shoot the same loads, factory or handload the same. So too with 5 Ruger Americans in .223 and 4 RPRs in .243Win.

A premium barrel shoots better than one of lessor quality every time with the same load. To say otherwise is perpetuating an old wives tale that has no basis in reality. This is not voodoo, there are specific, verifiable and repeatable reasons why one load is better than another and why one barrel is better than another.

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Really dude? Your response is to 3 guys who are all shooting premium barrels on custom built rifles who's primary shooting discipline is long range precision rifle. If what you assert were the case do you really think that EVERY single shooter in the top 100 in the PRS would be shooting hand loads? Bench resters, f-class, et all... Give me a break dude.

As for the gas gun tubes, you know full well there's a lot of things happening in a gas gun that aren't happening in a bolt gun that effect the accuracy of the whole package. I don't think you'll get any arguments from myself or most others here that you are one of the more accomplished guys on this board when it comes to that subject, however not everything translates 100% from your primary discipline to this one. It's a different animal, and a good shooting load, isn't good enough In this discipline, and when you're talking about 1 moa targets at ranges of 1000 yards, it has to be THE BEST load for a given rifle/barrel in order to get hits on those targets.

You are not comparing premium barrels in your example either, your comparing mass produced production rifle barrels, Ruger and Savage, nobody said that one is particularly better than the other besides you, and then you go on to assert that somehow a test case with a sample size of 4 or 5 all in a single cartridge, of which a selection of match quality factory ammo is extremely small proves your assertion. None of the barrels on the bolt guns you've mentioned are hand lapped then precision chambered barrels. I've shot out 4 premium barrels (all Kreigers) in the last 8 months alone, does that prove anything? Nope, it doesn't, but I can guarantee that there is no one size fits all BEST load for a given cartridge, otherwise all the aforementioned competitors wouldn't be wasting hours and barrel life doing load development, they'd just be using that time and energy for practice.

Are there certain loads that almost universally shoot well, yeah there are, but they are not going to be the best that that particular barrel can produce in 99.9% of those barrels.

You are asserting an anecdote and nothing more, never confuse anecdotal evidence as data.

Here are some ramblings from running and shooting precision rifle match's for the last 12 plus years in no particular order

Not once have I heard anybody complain that they were using top quality gear but more than once once have heard complaining about " this was just as good as X " bargain gear .

Spend as much as you can on glass , if you can't see it you can't hit it , and more so remember it is a sighting system and not just a telescope . It's got to track and be repeatable more than anything else .

Factory ammo is acceptable but to get the best performance you have too handload . Factory ammo is OK to 5 or 6 ish but the ES / SD numbers cause too much vertical on target after that . With that said the small semi custom ammo makers and the Hornady 6.5 CM are the exception being closer to true handloads .

Savage and Remington rifles have a track record of being acceptably accurate out of the box , the tupperware stocks on them are shit but the stocks of that construction suck from every manufacturer .

The Ruger RPR's are new and not proven yet . Ruger has been known for hit or miss rifle barrels on there centerfires from day one . There are already reports of accuracy issues with the RPR's out there , you just have to look further than the tiny sample of COAR to find them . The other thing that concerns me with them is they are built on Ruger's price point action and how the action is going to hold up in the long run .

The Rem 700 and clones are still king , the 700 is the most supported by the aftermarket for parts and upgrades with Savage being #2 .

Factory barrels are typically only going to be 3/4 to 1 MOA barrels , wallet groups with 3 shots that happened one time is not how well a barrel shoots . Groups need to be at least 5 rounds and every shot counts none of the called flier BS to throw shots out and it needs to be with multiple groups shot on different days .

100 yards is not a determination of how well a rifle will shoot across the board , you need to shoot and confirm at distance .

Get off the bench and shoot in the dirt and shoot in the wind , only way to get better in the wind is to shoot in it .

If you can afford a custom action do it you wont be sorry .

Practice with your gear before you have to go do it somewhere for real .

Get a chronograph and not one of the cheap Chrony's .

Get a ballistics's program for your data but don't trust it without verification . Record your data and make a set of cards with it on them , batteries die and running numbers on the clock takes too long .

Too say one mass produced factory button rifled barrel is better than another is crazy , every manufacturer runs them as fast as they can with as cheap of materials and processes because they want to turn a profit . Factory chambers are horrible and not conducive to max accuracy and brass life .

Even custom barrel manufacturers turn out a turd once in a while , I've had a bum Kreiger and Kolar has had 2 bad Pac nor's , it happens . Don't get attached to a barrel it is a consumable item just like ammo .

Come out to a local match and watch and talk to people before plunking down money , what works for one guy doesn't always work for another , the learning curve for long range is steep and expensive .

The PRS is not the end all be all of precision shooting , there courses are specialized to the style of shooting they do and not a representation of precision rifle shooting as a whole . Every match around the country is pretty much a representation of what the shooters in that area are interested in doing themselves and the capabilities of the range they shoot at .

308 is dead as a beginner caliber , with the availability of 6.5 CM ammo which is typically cheaper than 308 match ammo and acceptably accurate factory rifles it is a no brainer to go with a creedmore unless you have to run 308 for a specific reason .

BC is king in bullet selection , use the highest BC bullet that is accurate in your rifle / cartridge combo . High BC bullets create ballistic advantage which in turn increases danger space and decreases wind deflection which effectively makes the target larger .

Gucci bullets and powder availability when the election insanity was going on was problematic and the search for substitute components was interesting for some people . All the way through the craziness Powder Valley never raised their prices to the stupid prices that most others did .

I'm working with a new shooter at the moment, and I'm torn about how to advise him. He's on a very tight budget and already owns an R700 in 308 that seems to shoot a minute or a little less. We've discussed re-barreling in something 6.5, buying the Ruger, or just sticking with the .308 for a season. In the end and primarily due to his lack of budget, I recommend he keep the .308 and work up a load for 155's. He's planning to shoot unknown distance matches like the Safari. My reasoning is thus:

We all recommend that New Guys shoot as much as they can. Since he's on a budget, he obviously saves (or defers) the cost of a barrel, new dies, etc. and can spend that money on components and match fees. In addition, barrel life will be very long compared to the other options saving even more bank.

The 155's seem like a good choice since he's aiming at matches where the shooting positions suck and impacts are hard to spot. The reduced recoil can only help. I forgot, I recommended a brake as well. The extra speed of the 155's will also reduce the criticality of ranging when it's happening on the clock.

He'd figure out how to afford one of the other options if I told him that was the best plan, so it's still on the table. It'll put a serious dent in his ammo budget, though.

What do you guys think? Did I steer him wrong?

As you know I run the 155s as per you recomendation and I much prefer them. I can see impacts and the extra speed is definetly good. When I did shoot with a break it was a dream to shoot. I say that's good advice for now to practice with and when he is ready to rebarrel he can step up to a different cartridge. For now that will shoot really well. I get about 1/4-1/2 moa with the 155s.

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Originally Posted by Tim K

I'm working with a new shooter at the moment, and I'm torn about how to advise him. He's on a very tight budget and already owns an R700 in 308 that seems to shoot a minute or a little less. We've discussed re-barreling in something 6.5, buying the Ruger, or just sticking with the .308 for a season. In the end and primarily due to his lack of budget, I recommend he keep the .308 and work up a load for 155's. He's planning to shoot unknown distance matches like the Safari. My reasoning is thus:

We all recommend that New Guys shoot as much as they can. Since he's on a budget, he obviously saves (or defers) the cost of a barrel, new dies, etc. and can spend that money on components and match fees. In addition, barrel life will be very long compared to the other options saving even more bank.

The 155's seem like a good choice since he's aiming at matches where the shooting positions suck and impacts are hard to spot. The reduced recoil can only help. I forgot, I recommended a brake as well. The extra speed of the 155's will also reduce the criticality of ranging when it's happening on the clock.

He'd figure out how to afford one of the other options if I told him that was the best plan, so it's still on the table. It'll put a serious dent in his ammo budget, though.

What do you guys think? Did I steer him wrong?

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Good ideas. One thing that I always wonder, what if they do the bigger matches and don't like it? They just spent all that money and now have regrets. You gave me the same info. I'm glad you did. While I love the game, I don't have the time to hit all the matches I want. Yet!!

That said, my buget rifle has served me well enough for my skill level. And when time permits, I'll step it up. But not with an RPR.....LOL!!

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Originally Posted by Tim K

I'm working with a new shooter at the moment, and I'm torn about how to advise him. He's on a very tight budget and already owns an R700 in 308 that seems to shoot a minute or a little less. We've discussed re-barreling in something 6.5, buying the Ruger, or just sticking with the .308 for a season. In the end and primarily due to his lack of budget, I recommend he keep the .308 and work up a load for 155's. He's planning to shoot unknown distance matches like the Safari. My reasoning is thus:

We all recommend that New Guys shoot as much as they can. Since he's on a budget, he obviously saves (or defers) the cost of a barrel, new dies, etc. and can spend that money on components and match fees. In addition, barrel life will be very long compared to the other options saving even more bank.

The 155's seem like a good choice since he's aiming at matches where the shooting positions suck and impacts are hard to spot. The reduced recoil can only help. I forgot, I recommended a brake as well. The extra speed of the 155's will also reduce the criticality of ranging when it's happening on the clock.

He'd figure out how to afford one of the other options if I told him that was the best plan, so it's still on the table. It'll put a serious dent in his ammo budget, though.

What do you guys think? Did I steer him wrong?

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Without knowing what his budget really is, I think you gave him the best advice he could get for the time being. Getting a taste for this sport, before spending a pile of cash, is a great way to make sure it's not money "wasted". I know that money spent on good rifles and glass is never "wasted", but if he decides he doesn't like this side of the sport, he doesn't have to recoup that money to focus on something else.

Working a load with the 155's that's tailored to his rifles will likely yield some increase in accuracy over his current minute or so, making the existing 700 a decent learning gun. Reloading for the .308 doesn't have to be that expensive, and parts are usually pretty available. I really like shooting my 155 loads, and I don't find the recoil that obnoxious, even without a brake on one of them. The others have brakes, and it does help with spotting hits/misses, but it's not a necessity, IMO.

Yeah the magic number with 155's is 2850 or better and they don't shine till above 2900 . Pretty sure Mary Beth is 12 now IIRC .

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Originally Posted by C Ward

Yeah the magic number with 155's is 2850 or better and they don't shine till above 2900 . Pretty sure Mary Beth is 12 now IIRC .

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Actually she just turned 9 on the 21st. She's headed to the GAP Grind this weekend. She's paired up with Melissa Gilliland And is getting very excited!

Some reason I thought she was older than that . Makes the ass whoopin sting a little more .

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Originally Posted by Tim K

I'm working with a new shooter at the moment, and I'm torn about how to advise him. He's on a very tight budget and already owns an R700 in 308 that seems to shoot a minute or a little less. We've discussed re-barreling in something 6.5, buying the Ruger, or just sticking with the .308 for a season. In the end and primarily due to his lack of budget, I recommend he keep the .308 and work up a load for 155's. He's planning to shoot unknown distance matches like the Safari. My reasoning is thus:

We all recommend that New Guys shoot as much as they can. Since he's on a budget, he obviously saves (or defers) the cost of a barrel, new dies, etc. and can spend that money on components and match fees. In addition, barrel life will be very long compared to the other options saving even more bank.

The 155's seem like a good choice since he's aiming at matches where the shooting positions suck and impacts are hard to spot. The reduced recoil can only help. I forgot, I recommended a brake as well. The extra speed of the 155's will also reduce the criticality of ranging when it's happening on the clock.

He'd figure out how to afford one of the other options if I told him that was the best plan, so it's still on the table. It'll put a serious dent in his ammo budget, though.

What do you guys think? Did I steer him wrong?

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Why not make a change to a Criterion 6.5 Creedmoor prefit barrel. I got mine with the lug and nut in stainless for just under $400. I'm on a budget as well, and it took me 2 years to get a rifle completed. He could sell the old 308 barrel for around $100, then it wouldn't sting as bad.

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Originally Posted by C Ward

Some reason I thought she was older than that . Makes the ass whoopin sting a little more .

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Lol! I know that's right!

Thanks for the info on the 155's Chuck and Pedro. I'll pass that along and suggest he buy a box of 100 before committing.

It's still hard to believe a 9 year old can beat my ass, but the last time I shot at Raton with her she pretty much spanked me.

So the situation you are in was me last year in October, and actually many years before that but I decided to finally act at the beginning of this year. As you I had a itch to get into PRS style shooting and already had a pretty good 308 bolt gun. A FN-SPR-A5. My experience to rifle style competitions has been 3 gun since 2009 which I shoot at least one major 3gun match a year (He-Man nationals) with my Heman setup with the rifle being a GAP-10 18inch barrel 308. My GAP would always group 3/4inch at 100yards with SMK and TMK's 155's, but anytime I ran the load through my FN I would get +2inch or bigger groups, I just came to the realization that I just can't shoot a boltgun worth a damn.

I shot a couple of PRS style rifle matches with my 3gun rifle with a bushnell tactical 3x-12 and one Major match and did ok... but I wanted something a little more design for the game but was at a loss as I just couldn't get my FN to group well. After some convincing from people here at COar15 I tried out 175's out of my 308 and bam groups tighten to 1/2 inch out of the FN. Cool... except 175's coming out at 2600ish fps out of a 24 inch gun is a thumper. So I was in the hunt for a 6.5 RPR, but during that time they were vaporware and some places that did have them wanted x2 MSRP. Since I didn't want to spend 2k on a Ruger I weighed my options, either shoot the FN for the handful of PRS style Major matches I wanted to shoot this year, or go with a custom/AI build.

I've done a ton of research and basically it came down that 6.xx is just superior to 308 in everyway. Yes PRS has a separate 308/223 division but not all the matches I'll be attending were PRS, so I decided I'm going the 6.xx route. After talking to a few 3gun/PRS high level competitors the "cheaper" route would be to rebarrel the FN since I already have 2 other rifles that were in 308, the GAP-10 and G-II. And everyone that I talked to agreed the FN action (Winchester 70) is actually pretty rock solid system, since it already came with a A5 Stock that's been bedded, 20MOA rail, and been trued at factory. Only issue is there's like one guy in Colorado that can spin a barrel on a FN. So after talking to Fritz that now works at Mile High, he convinced me to go 6.5 Creedmoor as it would give me more bang for my buck and then he went to work. He put in a new bartlen 1-8 26" barrel, threaded it and did his voodoo, as well as put in a new bottom metal that accepts AI mags and a 2lbs trigger job. When I got the gun back in Feb the first 3 shots from factory 140 Hornady Amax at 100yards was a little larger then 1/4inch. Since then I've worked up a pretty good load with Hornady 140s ELD's that stay within that group size now. I topped the rifle with a Bushnell Elite 4.5-30 G2 that I got at a killer deal at Mile high, and this rifle has quickly became one of my favorite rifles to shoot.

NOW.. with that said, if I do burnout the barrel on this rifle in the future instead of rebarreling the rifle, I'll more then likely go with a custom build that has the ability to put custom barrels on with some sort of "quick" change system. Nothing wrong with the FN as its hell of a shooter but it did cost me 1k to get the work done + the barrel. So my answer is to buy a more expensive solution down the road :P.

A lot of great answers are in this thread and I can only tell you what I personally went through this past year as my experience seems to mimic your current situation.

A custom action switch barrel is going to be the same money as having a rebarrel done X amount of times .

That is another issue floating about with the RPR's , the guns show head space issues sometimes with the replacement barrels . Have heard about it with both the Proof and LRI prefits . Again reason to doubt building a precision rifle on a Walmart action .

AI is the most reliable of the quick change systems but remember they were designed for military calibers and factory ammo that doesn't get reloaded . There are 5 of there rifles that I have personally seen have set back issues with the bolt lugs running hot rod competition calibers all AW's IIRC .

Just shoot and rebarrel as needed . Unless you run one of the hotrod 6's you'll see 4k ish out of a barrel in a 6.5 at 2800 ish , schedule the rebarrel in the winter when the weather's crappy and remember Fritz likes Guinness and good whiskey .

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That is another issue floating about with the RPR's , the guns show head space issues sometimes with the replacement barrels . Have heard about it with both the Proof and LRI prefits . Again reason to doubt building a precision rifle on a Walmart action .

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RPR barrels are not headspaced by the barrel maker, but by the installer. If there are headspace issues, it is the mechanic, not the machine.