Matching upper and lower receivers.

Virtually every AR15 I have ever touched has that annoying looseness between the lower and upper. Found a great article addressing this issue and the explanation put the problem as plus mill spec and minus mill spec. That is if the upper leans more to one side of the acceptable tolerance and the matching lower leans in the opposite direction for tolerance you can end up with sloppy fit (not tight).

Would that suggest we should buy matched upper and lowers as a combination only?


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$2 Accu-wedge
http://www.dharkon.com/images/DPMS%2...ge%20-%202.jpg
Works every time

I have one of those rubber plugs in one of mine. My new build has a tension screw that adjusts the slop.

I'm apparently not annoyed easily enough [flamingo]

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Would that suggest we should buy matched upper and lowers as a combination only?

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Even if you buy them as a matched set, and they somehow fit airtight and slopless, they're going to loosen up over time as you shoot them.

I personally don't like the "accuwedge" or tension screw solutions because they put and keep the halves under tension, which will increase wear on the takedown pin and the hole in the post, but it will make them feel tighter if that's what's important to you.

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Originally Posted by hatidua

I'm apparently not annoyed easily enough [flamingo]

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Ditto. Nature of the beast.

Never has bothered me enough to address it. My precious (Seekins SBR) has the tension screw and I leave it back out. As Ray said, it's nature of the beast.

Get a suppressor and shoot a lot. You'll have so much crud backed up into your gun that it starts oozing out between upper and lower, reducing the wobble.

... only partially kidding.

This used to bug me but I've long since stopped caring.

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Originally Posted by Brian

Get a suppressor and shoot a lot. You'll have so much crud backed up into your gun that it starts oozing out between upper and lower, reducing the wobble.

... only partially kidding.

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LOL! My hand was black in between my thumb and index finger after a range day a few weeks back.

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Virtually every AR15 I have ever touched has that annoying looseness between the lower and upper. Found a great article addressing this issue and the explanation put the problem as plus mill spec and minus mill spec. That is if the upper leans more to one side of the acceptable tolerance and the matching lower leans in the opposite direction for tolerance you can end up with sloppy fit (not tight).

Would that suggest we should buy matched upper and lowers as a combination only?


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Have you shot anything milspec? They make more noise than a cornered rattle snake. If it works and it shoots straight.. dont worry about it.

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Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey

Have you shot anything milspec? They make more noise than a cornered rattle snake. If it works and it shoots straight.. dont worry about it.

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Thanks for your insight. Yep, no doubt sloppy loose is normal. And yes, I agree what happens under the upper receiver has very little to do with the accuracy of a chambered round. So yes, I have shot many milspec AR's. So now I will ask you a question. Have you ever held or shot a "accurized" AR? There is no slop or looseness. How long will it stay that way? I have no idea, but it is great while it last.

Regarding accuwedge and "O" rings or shims, I agree, these are bandaids not fixes.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Thanks for your insight. Yep, no doubt sloppy loose is normal. And yes, I agree what happens under the upper receiver has very little to do with the accuracy of a chambered round. So yes, I have shot many milspec AR's. So now I will ask you a question. Have you ever held or shot a "accurized" AR? There is no slop or looseness. How long will it stay that way? I have no idea, but it is great while it last.

Regarding accuwedge and "O" rings or shims, I agree, these are bandaids not fixes.


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The real question is... What's your level of expectation accuracy wise out to 1 - 2 - 400 + if that yards? What are you wanting to acheive with your AR, distance, urban build ? You can buy and off the shelf AR, or assemble one from a parts kit, and hit steel @ 1 - 200 yds. even more depending on eye sight and optic.

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Thanks for your insight. Yep, no doubt sloppy loose is normal. And yes, I agree what happens under the upper receiver has very little to do with the accuracy of a chambered round. So yes, I have shot many milspec AR's. So now I will ask you a question. Have you ever held or shot a "accurized" AR? There is no slop or looseness. How long will it stay that way? I have no idea, but it is great while it last.

Regarding accuwedge and "O" rings or shims, I agree, these are bandaids not fixes.


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Plenty... but it won't be fair. I happen to be a dealer. I have run into DD mk12 with some play to it.. still shooting moa. Double D demo gun that have seen over 16 k rounds.. sloppy but still moa. Even in hk417 and MWS, we have seen some play between the receivers, and they are still accurate. So 2 things, matching receivers from the same manufacturer do not guarantee anything, and a little looseness as you mentioned may not even be a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

The real question is... What's your level of expectation accuracy wise out to 1 - 2 - 400 + if that yards? What are you wanting to acheive with your AR, distance, urban build ? You can buy and off the shelf AR, or assemble one from a parts kit, and hit steel @ 1 - 200 yds. even more depending on eye sight and optic.

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You reduced the discussion to the simple heart of the matter. Almost anyone with any reasonable skills should be able group well and hit targets out to 200 yards. When I started this post I figured somebody would make a statement regarding getting another rifle altogether, like a lock bolt with no slop anywhere. That would have missed my point. I love building (assembling) AR and AK style rifles. However, maybe it is my OCD talking, I have trouble accepting sloppy loose as not fixable. Thanks for your observations.


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Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey

Plenty... but it won't be fair. I happen to be a dealer. I have run into DD mk12 with some play to it.. still shooting moa. Double D demo gun that have seen over 16 k rounds.. sloppy but still moa. Even in hk417 and MWS, we have seen some play between the receivers, and they are still accurate. So 2 things, matching receivers from the same manufacturer do not guarantee anything, and a little looseness as you mentioned may not even be a big deal.

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Funny (to me) how highly regarded the Daniels Defense brand of high quality AR rifles are. Yes, I have one. Won't sell it or trade it either. But, yep, that rattle sloppiness is present on that gun as well.

As a dealer perhaps you can comment on another observation I had with my personal Daniels Defense weapon. Probably of no real consequence, like my dissatisfaction with rattle looseness, my picatinny rails did not line up perfectly. That is the upper receiver rail did not mate up perfectly with the forward rail of my floating hand guard. For me, I would expect for $1,800.00 perfect alignment from the factory. Have you seen this yourself as a dealer? Fixable? Yes, but it disappointed me big time .


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Just an observation on the Noveske uppers and lowers. The assembly tolerances are on the tight side. Picked up two uppers on sale at one location and two lowers at another so they are not matches sets. Been shooting these over 8 years and still no slop or wiggle or any movement on either gun with 2,117 rounds on one or them. All my other brands (LMT, LWRC ....) have some movement but it does not affect accuracy or precision when I shoot them.

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Almost anyone with any reasonable skills should be able group well and hit targets out to 200 yards.

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Define well and how big of a target...

The tolerance stacking that results in the wobble between the upper and lower (different from rifle to rifle) while annoying for some has little to nothing to do with the accuracy of the rifle if that is part of your concern. Looks like I'm late to the party on this one so never mind.

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Originally Posted by Hoser

Define well and how big of a target...

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Oh, trying to trap me are you? Actually by most "sniper" standards the AR is not the most accurate of rifles. But, the military thinks hitting 6 inch steel plates at 300 yards is average at best. No bench rest, just sitting, prone, or standing holding a 7 pound gun with iron sights.

My initial post regarding looseness between the upper and lower receiver was not meant to be about marksmanship.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Funny (to me) how highly regarded the Daniels Defense brand of high quality AR rifles are. Yes, I have one. Won't sell it or trade it either. But, yep, that rattle sloppiness is present on that gun as well.

As a dealer perhaps you can comment on another observation I had with my personal Daniels Defense weapon. Probably of no real consequence, like my dissatisfaction with rattle looseness, my picatinny rails did not line up perfectly. That is the upper receiver rail did not mate up perfectly with the forward rail of my floating hand guard. For me, I would expect for $1,800.00 perfect alignment from the factory. Have you seen this yourself as a dealer? Fixable? Yes, but it disappointed me big time .


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Windage alignment wise? I have seen them on few high end brands, but not on Daniel. The Daniels hold very high standards of their employees. You can reach them directly at FB Daniel group and they'll take care of you. You seem to be a perfectionist, how did you miss it when you purchased it.

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Oh, trying to trap me are you? Actually by most "sniper" standards the AR is not the most accurate of rifles. But, the military thinks hitting 6 inch steel plates at 300 yards is average at best. No bench rest, just sitting, prone, or standing holding a 7 pound gun with iron sights.

My initial post regarding looseness between the upper and lower receiver was not meant to be about marksmanship.


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You are talking to the master of 3" gong there... Although I have not been to his matches. I have seen videos of the matches he hosted. Impressive group of shooters. One of these days, I ll get my fat butt down there w/ Islandermyke.

Want to buy a really tight fitting upper and lower complete rifle? Look into buying a Falkor Defense setup. Now there is some precision matching. !!!

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Originally Posted by porterdavid98

Oh, trying to trap me are you?

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Just wondering. Dome dudes think minute of car door is accurate enough.

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Originally Posted by Hoser

Just wondering. Dome dudes think minute of car door is accurate enough.

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That's no way to talk about Sean's junk gun.

Not intending to hijack the post but I've done two builds so I'm a newby.

Both run Spikes lowers and BCM uppers. Tight as a virgin and easily better than the stock RRA and Colt I have. And the Colt has the "pretty" Accuwedge in it. But Colt is Colt...not a bad thing but...

One wears an EoTech and the other wears a Vortex 1x6 with LaRue QDs.

Triggers are where my concerns lay. I'd be more concerned about that but you guys are more experienced than I am.

Drew - Out

My DDM4v1 doesn't rattle at all... I've lost track of how many cases of ammo I've ran through it. Guess I got lucky!

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Originally Posted by sealer

Not intending to hijack the post but I've done two builds so I'm a newby.

Both run Spikes lowers and BCM uppers. Tight as a virgin and easily better than the stock RRA and Colt I have. And the Colt has the "pretty" Accuwedge in it. But Colt is Colt...not a bad thing but...

One wears an EoTech and the other wears a Vortex 1x6 with LaRue QDs.

Triggers are where my concerns lay. I'd be more concerned about that but you guys are more experienced than I am.

Drew - Out

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Spikes, BCM, Colt, and DD for the most part all use uppers/lowers manufactured by Cerro Forge. The main difference are the markings.

I'm in agreement, best to purchase matched upper/lower
Keep it oiled up

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Originally Posted by Badaboom

Keep it oiled up

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Why?

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Originally Posted by Hoser

Just wondering. Some dudes think minute of car door is accurate enough.

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All my rifles are BSB accurate all day long, if I do my part...

I have a Seekins factory rifle that has almost no slop and has been a hammer with factory ammo out to 850y. There are also custom builders and NM builder (Compass Lake) that build very tight, very accurate rifles.

You can spend the dough and get exactly what you desire, but is the juice worth the squeeze?