Charging more than $10 for a private transfer = illegal?

Here is the text from the 2013 transfer law.

(2) (a) A PROSPECTIVE FIREARM TRANSFEROR WHO IS NOT ALICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL ARRANGE FOR A LICENSED GUN DEALER TOOBTAIN THE BACKGROUND CHECK REQUIRED BY THIS SECTION.(b) A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECKON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDEDIN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED INSECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING ASALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL.THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALLCOMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18 U.S.C. SEC.922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HERINVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.(c) A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECKFOR A PROSPECTIVE FIREARM TRANSFEROR PURSUANT TO THIS SECTIONSHALL PROVIDE THE FIREARM TRANSFEROR AND TRANSFEREE A COPY OF THERESULTS OF THE BACKGROUND CHECK, INCLUDING THE BUREAU'S APPROVALOR DISAPPROVAL OF THE TRANSFER.(d) A LICENSED GUN DEALER MAY CHARGE A FEE FOR SERVICES RENDERED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION, WHICH FEE SHALL NOT EXCEED TEN DOLLARS.



Here is the entire bill: http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cli...e=1229_enr.pdf


I'm surprised FFL's have been getting away with charging $50+ for transfers. Sounds to me like every single FFL who charges anything over $10 is breaking the law.


Thoughts?

That's the state's fee. The rest is the FFLs.

They can charging up to $10 for the background check. There is no provision for how much someone can charge for the transfer.
So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background check so that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.

I believe what you are complaining about is ordering a gun a having it delivered to a FFL dealer. Now they can charge you $10 for the back ground check and what ever they feel like for the transfer from their FFL to you. Remember this is a service they may or may not offer. What they decide to charge you for this transfer from their FFL is up to them.

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?
Will an FFL do a back ground without possession?

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Originally Posted by Colorado Osprey

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?
Will an FFL do a back ground without possession?

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They are.

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Their staff is providing the service. That costs the business money. They also assume the risk.

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Originally Posted by Colorado Osprey

They can charging up to $10 for the background check. There is no provision for how much someone can charge for the transfer.
So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background check so that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.

I believe what you are complaining about is ordering a gun a having it delivered to a FFL dealer. Now they can charge you $10 for the back ground check and what ever they feel like for the transfer from their FFL to you. Remember this is a service they may or may not offer. What they decide to charge you for this transfer from their FFL is up to them.

Am I off base or are dealers charging more than $10 for a back ground check on a private transfer where the dealer never takes possession of the firearm?

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I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.


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Originally Posted by Wiggity

I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.


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So if you are selling a gun to your buddy and go in for buddy to get a background checkso that you can sell it to him, the dealer can charge your buddy up to $10.


They are actually charging $6 for the CBI BGC and what ever they want for the transfer. You should verify TRANSFER FEES before having the BGC and TRANSFER done.

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

I'm talking about the bolded. Almost all FFL's charge $20+ for this. Sure looks to me like this is illegal.

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At Liberty Firearms, They charge $6 for the background check and $20 for doing the transfer.
Similar at Ark, but the total is $25.

The bold is what they can charge for doing the background check. Not for managing the entire transfer.

Well a background check is the only thing you need for the transfer. And the law says they have to provide you with a copy of the results. So charging a bgc fee plus a transfer fee doesn't make any sense.


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Originally Posted by Wiggity

Well a background check is the only thing you need for the transfer. And the law says they have to provide you with a copy of the results. So charging a bgc fee plus a transfer fee doesn't make any sense.


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Bullshit.
You want a business to take time out from their sales to assist you with a non store purchase, for free. [ROFL2] Makes sense to me.

You believe those 4473's fill them self out, then robo call to CBI. Every step requires a person to handle it. It's not your FFL or business on the line if there's a mistake on the paperwork, is it?

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Originally Posted by mattiooo

Mind you, I'm not complaining. Their staff is providing the service. That costs the business money. They also assume the risk.

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What risk? There is absolutely no risk whatsoever when conducting a bgc.


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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

Bullshit.
You want a business to take time out from their sales to assist you with a non store purchase, for free. [ROFL2] Makes sense to me.

You believe those 4473's fill them self out, then robo call to CBI. Every step requires a person to handle it. It's not your FFL or business on the line if there's a mistake on the paperwork, is it?

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Calm down sweetheart. Not bullshit. Just pointing out what the law says. Your opinion doesn't make any sense according to the law. No need to get all cranky lol.

It looks like they can charge a max of $10. The bgc costs them $6. So they are making money. It takes about 3 mins of actual work to complete their part.


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You don't get a copy of the results, if you fail then you get a reference number and you have to call CBI to find out why you failed.

Like others have stated you pay $6 for the BGC and then the store charges for the separate service of transferring the firearm. 2 services 2 fees. They need to amend that to $6 max because that's the cost of the BGC not $10 anymore.

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

Calm down sweetheart. Not bullshit. Just pointing out what the law says. Your opinion doesn't make any sense according to the law. No need to get all cranky lol.

It looks like they can charge a max of $10. The bgc costs them $6. So they are making money. It takes about 3 mins of actual work to complete their part.


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And your ignorance how and why things are done is glaring

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

What risk? There is absolutely no risk whatsoever when conducting a bgc.

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You don't think there is risk for the shop that processes the background check?

Oh and the BGC isn't the only thing you need because you can pull a BGC off CBI's website directly (or use too). but you need the FFL to do the xfer. That's why the ffl puts it into thier A&D and then signs it out to whoever the buyer is. I think the ATF views the FFL as the "overseer" of the transaction that way hopefully it's "Lawful". But that's IMHO

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Originally Posted by Mazin

You don't get a copy of the results, if you fail then you get a reference number and you have to call CBI to find out why you failed.

Like others have stated you pay $6 for the BGC and then the store charges for the separate service of transferring the firearm. 2 services 2 fees. They need to amend that to $6 max because that's the cost of the BGC not $10 anymore.

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That isn't what the law says though. What does a "transfer" entail besides a bgc?


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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

And your ignorance how and why things are done is glaring

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No need to personally insult me. Please read the entire law again.


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Originally Posted by mattiooo

You don't think there is risk for the shop that processes the background check?

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No. If there is, please enlighten me.


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Originally Posted by Mazin

Oh and the BGC isn't the only thing you need because you can pull a BGC off CBI's website directly (or use too). but you need the FFL to do the xfer. That's why the ffl puts it into thier A&D and then signs it out to whoever the buyer is. I think the ATF views the FFL as the "overseer" of the transaction that way hopefully it's "Lawful". But that's IMHO

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That really isn't what the law says. I think that is your average FFL's interpretation.


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No I'm simply stating what CBI has told me on more than one occasion. If you would like to argue with them by all means you have my blessing and wish of good luck. Until we have legislation clearing up all the grey areas this is the world in which we live so deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Mazin

No I'm simply stating what CBI has told me on more than one occasion. If you would like to argue with them by all means you have my blessing and wish of good luck. Until we have legislation clearing up all the grey areas this is the world in which we live so deal with it.

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Well that is fair enough. And if true, I'm not sure CBI has it right either.


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Lol when does any gov agency ever have anything right [Beer]

You don't have to be right if your the .gov

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Originally Posted by kidicarus13

You don't have to be right if your the .gov

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He didn't mean it big brother!!!!!

Kid the Broom is against the door, John has a long mustache [Coffee]

And when is it ok for the gov to tell a business what they can charge for a service? It's not ever ok.

While I agree with everyone here that the fee written into the law is just the BGC fee and the store can charge what ever they want for a transfer, let's say the OP is right and $10 total bgc+transfer is the law, I'm still ok paying more.

I hate the law and would much rather do it for free in a parking lot like we used too. But if the gov is going to mandate stores provide a particular service, as a freedom loving American who supports the small businesses that support my hobby, I believe they should charge whatever reasonable fee they want. If they charge too much, the free market will work that out. I buy firearms the same place I transfer them. I prefer to support the stores who take care of me even if it means they charge a few dollars over the $10 in the BS law.

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

No. If there is, please enlighten me.

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You're completely ignoring the fact the dealer has to comply with state law (ie: price of the bgc) and federal law (ie: record keeping requirements).

A dealer, like any other business, assumes risk simply by being in business. The dealer is required to keep records of the transaction for 20 years or until they go out of business. At any time their records can be audited. If there's a mistake, they face certain penalties which could range from minor to severe. That means the ATF can call and ask for a trace on a gun a dealer sold 19 years earlier. That dealer has a strict time frame to report back to the ATF on the information they request. Not to mention they're responsible for their employees and making sure their employees do the paperwork properly, file it properly, etc. The ATF isn't gonna give a rat's ass that your employee (or the dealer) was a slacker and didn't do or maintain the paperwork properly if there's a problem.

Furthermore, the dealer has to provide computers, record keeping software, phone lines, power, insurance, office supplies, expensive inventory, employees (usually), tax preparers and on and on and on.

You can't possibly be so naive as to think a bgc occurs in a vacuum absent of other factors. Obviously you've never been in business for yourself. If you have...WOW!

At one time, it was questionable if the Colorado FFL dealer was actually obligated to run the transfer through his bound book in addition to getting the BGC, Also, it was questioned whether or not there was any chance the FFL dealer may some how be obligated to collect any tax on the transfers if the firearm was actually run through his bound book. Apparently those concerns have all settled down.

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

Calm down sweetheart. No need to get all cranky lol.




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

No need to personally insult me. Please read the entire law again.


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You think i'm personally insulting you, by calling you ignorant? After the numerous replies trying to explain why there are other charges.
Isn't there a statue somewhere you should be pulling down

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.H...=0&w=286&h=162

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Originally Posted by hollohas

And when is it ok for the gov to tell a business what they can charge for a service? It's not ever ok.

While I agree with everyone here that the fee written into the law is just the BGC fee and the store can charge what ever they want for a transfer, let's say the OP is right and $10 total bgc+transfer is the law, I'm still ok paying more.

I hate the law and would much rather do it for free in a parking lot like we used too. But if the gov is going to mandate stores provide a particular service, as a freedom loving American who supports the small businesses that support my hobby, I believe they should charge whatever reasonable fee they want. If they charge too much, the free market will work that out. I buy firearms the same place I transfer them. I prefer to support the stores who take care of me even if it means they charge a few dollars over the $10 in the BS law.

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I mean, the law shouldn't even be there in the first place. I see why an FFL would want to charge for it. However, as a consumer, I don't exactly want to be charged an additional fat fee for something I shouldn't even have to do in the first place. I've probably done over 100 of them and I know exactly how much work goes into a "transfer". $20-$40 for 3 mins of work is steep.


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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

You're completely ignoring the fact the dealer has to comply with state law (ie: price of the bgc) and federal law (ie: record keeping requirements).

A dealer, like any other business, assumes risk simply by being in business. The dealer is required to keep records of the transaction for 20 years or until they go out of business. At any time their records can be audited. If there's a mistake, they face certain penalties which could range from minor to severe. That means the ATF can call and ask for a trace on a gun a dealer sold 19 years earlier. That dealer has a strict time frame to report back to the ATF on the information they request. Not to mention they're responsible for their employees and making sure their employees do the paperwork properly, file it properly, etc. The ATF isn't gonna give a rat's ass that your employee (or the dealer) was a slacker and didn't do or maintain the paperwork properly if there's a problem.

Furthermore, the dealer has to provide computers, record keeping software, phone lines, power, insurance, office supplies, expensive inventory, employees (usually), tax preparers and on and on and on.

You can't possibly be so naive as to think a bgc occurs in a vacuum absent of other factors. Obviously you've never been in business for yourself. If you have...WOW!

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You assume incorrectly on multiple levels. One being, I worked at an FFL right out of school. We were audited a few times. Record keeping involved filling out the paperwork correctly and keeping it in an organized file cabinet. It's not a lot of work. A bgc itself is minimally labor intensive.


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Originally Posted by Wiggity

I mean, the law shouldn't even be there in the first place. I see why an FFL would want to charge for it. However, as a consumer, I don't exactly want to be charged an additional fat fee for something I shouldn't even have to do in the first place. I've probably done over 100 of them and I know exactly how much work goes into a "transfer". $20-$40 for 3 mins of work is steep.


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Let me start by agreeing with you that IMO the governmental intrusion on private transaction is repugnant.

How much do you pay for vehicle insurance when you are not driving or do not have a claim? Why would anyone pay that fee unless they were required by governmental intrusion? The analogy is not perfectly matched to the transfer law but I believe it provides another example of government intrusion into our private lives. And for those who would make the argument about driving on public roads, keep in mind that government vehicles: local, state, and federal, driving on those same roads are self insured by the tax payers of those jurisdictions. Another double standard brought to you by those we elect to represent us.

What are you (We) going to do about it?

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

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You think i'm personally insulting you, by calling you ignorant? After the numerous replies trying to explain why there are other charges.
Isn't there a statue somewhere you should be pulling down

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.H...=0&w=286&h=162

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I know why an FFL wants to charge. Im not asking about that. I'm asking a fair question about the letter of a law that was passed here in Colorado.

Calling me a snowflake and comparing me to a criminal when you yourself can't put your feelings aside and handle a simple question? I don't understand why you would do that and it doesn't make sense. We're on the same side here, don't pretend otherwise.


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I run my private and internet purchase transfers through Bill Stark for this reason. Mucho cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Wiggity

I know why an FFL wants to charge. Im not asking about that. I'm asking a fair question about the letter of a law that was passed here in Colorado.

Calling me a snowflake and comparing me to a criminal when you yourself can't put your feelings aside and handle a simple question? I don't understand why you would do that and it doesn't make sense. We're on the same side here, don't pretend otherwise.


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Wasn't there just a post recently from a moderator discussing the civility of this group? [facepalm]

OK. Well, I apologize for giving you a logical, detailed answer to your question. It's obvious you're only interested in having your opinion validated and you aren't interested in a real answer from someone who was in the business for years or others that have tried to explain it.

My advice to you: Get your own FFL and charge yourself and others $6 to do private transfers.

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Originally Posted by BlasterBob

At one time, it was questionable if the Colorado FFL dealer was actually obligated to run the transfer through his bound book in addition to getting the BGC, Also, it was questioned whether or not there was any chance the FFL dealer may some how be obligated to collect any tax on the transfers if the firearm was actually run through his bound book. Apparently those concerns have all settled down.

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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...earms/download

If it never went thru the dealers "bound book" then the only record of the transfer would be the 4473. Which has to be numbered and coincide with the FFL's bound book. Conducting a BGC without a firearm is against the law. The ATF had to put out a ruling on how to conduct BGC for private party transfers after Colorado made it a law.

It's a free market system.
The FFL is free to charge whatever they want to facilitate the transfer.
Your free to use whatever FFL you want.

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by To Bear Arms

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...earms/download

If it never went thru the dealers "bound book" then the only record of the transfer would be the 4473. Which has to be numbered and coincide with the FFL's bound book. Conducting a BGC without a firearm is against the law. The ATF had to put out a ruling on how to conduct BGC for private party transfers after Colorado made it a law.

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Not to mention on the new 4473 there is a check box: "Is this a private party transfer" .

Wiggity,

You are absolutely correct. The best thing to do is do a private transfer at each and every FFL you can find, then spend a bunch of money on lawyers to draw up your case and head to court.

Then the judge can explain to you what everyone else has been saying....you're wrong! Drop it already.