Thinking of a AR Pistol/SBR in 9mm.
What is the consensus on these? Pre-built? or build on from scratch?
Any particular manufactures to go with?
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Thinking of a AR Pistol/SBR in 9mm.
What is the consensus on these? Pre-built? or build on from scratch?
Any particular manufactures to go with?
I have done a good bit of R&D and T&E for manufacturers. 6 Factory guns, a few prototypes and 7 that I built myself. IMHO, the Nordic and JP are the closest ready to go, but they still need work. FM Products is another one that makes great systems. Slap their 8.5" on a QC10 lower with a POF trigger and you probably have about the best available right now.
ALL of my personal 9mmARs have the 3.5# POF flat trigger and FM bolts. 9mm blowbacks are a bit violent and they are know to tear up bolts and triggers if they are not properly set-up. The FM bolt has the proper geometry, AR15 style extractor and is properly ramped. The POF has rubber bumpers, fits tight and has locked hammer and trigger pins in a cartridge. It does the best at spreading out the force over the two holes so the hammer pin hole does not get hogged out or break.
Buffers are the other area to be careful. JP flatwire spring (223 for powder puffs, 308 for defense power) with a .308 carbine buffer and a delrin plug cut for overtravel just about 3/8" past the bolt latch. That will allow the bolt latch to last and give the best operation. If you want to spend more, blitzkrieg 9mm hydraulic buffer is the hot ticket. I have both systems and the Blitz is the best, but pricey.
Personally, since no-one has a totally dialed in system, you can do better building today.
If you want to shoot mine, let me know. I have several and you can try suppressed, unsuppressed. Compare them to a KelTec, 16" version, even a 10mm DI PCC. :)
I've got two... one a carbine and the other a pistol. Used the JoeBob Outfitters Spartan 9mm upper n lower with Kaw Valley parts and a hiperfire trigger... so far uber reliable, but I'm just pushing plinking ammo thru them...
I recommend QC10 from personal experience. Never had an issue with any of my 9mm AR's even though I've read a lot about how unreliable they can be.
What about a Scorpion EVO 9mm over an AR 9mm?
The Scorpion has not fared as well as the SIG MPX, and both have proprietary (expensive) parts. They both have a higher failure rate among competitors running them hard than the AR9s. If you want a cheap plinker, a KelTec Sub2000 might be worth a look, but the wise advice has been to avoid the Scorpion and MPX at least until they get Gen2s out.Quote:
Originally Posted by electronman1729
The Scorpion is one of the most reliable of the PCCs. Their mags suck and the triggers get so full of carbon they have to be cleaned every 500-1000 rounds religiously. There is a 3rd gen mag that is much stronger. I haven't had the chance to beat the new mag up yet, but the gun will run ammo that will make a Glock puke. The aftermarket parts for the Scorpion are cheap and so are the OEM parts. They are proprietary, but not even close to expensive.
The MPX is on it's second upgrade of it's second generation. They currently dominate PCC competition, period. They are expensive, but untouchable for flat fast shooting. The current MPXs are more reliable than any of the AR-9s, but you have to change the factory trigger right out of the gate. The first gens sucked.
AR9's break just as much as any other pcc. They are violent direct blow-back guns getting ran on the edge for competition and they break gas keys, extractors, buffers, and triggers. Outside of competition use, you can up the reciprocation mass and go to less complicated buffers and stop a lot of the failures. I've seen so many of the AR-9 lowers with janky specs, I simply won't recommend anything but JP or QC10. They both work.
The Sub-2000 is hella cheap, uber reliable, and fucking awful to shoot. It's like getting punched in the face every trigger pull.
For the MPX and AR-9s, the Hiperfire 24 series triggers dominate hands down.
ROFLQuote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Glad to hear about the Scorpion as I just got one.
[ROFL2] Max, Tim, Scott, and Todd all shoot AR9s, Brian just went from an MPX to an AR9. So that leaves only Taran in the top 5 of the last two Championships with an MPX. Don't let your hate for me lead you to again give errant advice.Quote:
They currently dominate PCC competition, period.
Todd Jarrett shoots an MPX. Took a class with him two weeks ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Please go away. You are the problem, not the solution.
Darn Bro... You used to be much nicer. What happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Friday
Now I'm interested to hear what the solution is, and also the problem.
I like the AR 9mm, I have a CMMG lower that works really well with home built and JSE uppers . I still use a Hahn magazine block in a standard AR lower on occasion.
I was looking at the PTR 9mm, that would an excellent although pricey alternative to the Sig or CZ.
Plus one to the QC10 as well as the MPX. I didn't build my QC10 in 9mm but I really like it all the same.
PSA has fully assembled ones for $599 regularly
I built mine on an New Frontier Armory glock lower, but I have quite a bit more in it than $599
Mine runs like a raped ape, even with crap reloads, but it did take two trips to the range to get it dialed in.
I have mine in a pistol config
What is that barrel?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-Spook
I couldn't find anything there that showed what people were shooting when they won or not. Did find it kind it kinda funny that the logo seems to have an MPX right on it though. I have no skin in this argument, mostly curious about what the top competitors are using.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
http://pccchampionship.com/images/logo_main.png
No argument, just thought a few folks might be interested in going to the match. It is a really good time.
By far, more SIGs went down in that match than anything else, and NO Sub2000s went down.
For what it's worth, I have a 16" PSA upper on a Spikes Glock mag lower that works great.
ETA: Both the upper and lower were pre-assembled. I ditched the trigger that was in it for something a little smoother, but otherwise left it alone.
I watched a few videos of the matches today. Looks pretty cool, life is too busy to actually get out to see it live. The mags they use in the match are insane. How many rounds are they holding in those?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Most top guys have backed down to 41s. There are some 47s and 57s as well. Most of those are made by swapping the +2 pad on the 9mm Glock 33s with longer pads from MBX or TTI. There are companies out there making 3D printed couplers and pads, but they don't last long, flex and fail. A 41 in the gun and 23s for reloads is the smart money today. That of course may change as folks figure stuff out. I designed three of the stages for the match, 49, 39 and 17 rounds. There will be several in the high 20 to mid 30 round range.Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy
Colt mag guys are typically running 31s, with some custom made into the 40s that they treat like crystal and only run when needed. One guy on my squad last year had some custom 60s, they did not make it through one stage without some sort of bobble to catastrophic failures.
I have a CZ and PTR, both are great as long as you know what you are getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberth
its a 4.5 inch I spun up on the latheQuote:
Originally Posted by izzy
It's pretty unique looking. Got more pictures of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-Spook
Good ole' MPX... It's a great PCC.. until it's not. I have 2 MPX's and both have seen hard use, the Gen 1 had about 10k through the barrel before it started to choke on me. It has been back to Sig Sauer twice. They replaced the gas system, bolt, extractor, and springs, and it still not 100% like it was pre 10k rounds. The Gen 2 has hiccup'd once or twice but nothing to serious, but it did go down on me hard at the PCC world championships last year which cost me several placements due to the 30 secs of me F* around trying to clear it. With all that said I'm still competing with my MPX, because it is miles ahead any blowback PCC out there, even a fully raced out JP GMR-15 still kicks harder.
HOWEVER I do have a QC10 that I am fiddling with a CMMG guard upper with and I have a GMR-15 on order. Sig is also looking at releasing a Gen 3? MPX or a "PCC" ready MPX that has suppose fixes done to their system. Once they start shipping I'll get in contact with Sig to see what can be done to my Gen 1.
To note: I had a long discussion with TG at RM3G on why he went to the JP GMR-15. Its not that he wanted to, because he does like how the MPX shoots, its the part availability issue that Sig has which I have ran into this issue myself... its seems you need to have 3 MPX's in rotation just so you'll always have one ready for competition while one is with Sig getting fix, and the other being backup when your main goes down [Mad]
^People who actually shoot them know. :)
Lucas Oil PCC, Championship is in the books. It had even less MPXs and Scorpions this year. 1st through 4th were AR15 pattern (including Todd Jarrett in 3rd with a JP). 1 Frankengun, 2 JPs, 1 LimCat. Brian Nelson, in 5th tried the MPX one more time. The next 5 were also AR15 pattern, so 9 of the top 10 ran AR15 pattern 9mm PCCs. Lena was 11th with an MPX (Jerry in 13th also with an AR15 pattern). Less Colt pattern mags and pretty much dominance with Glock mags. Even the handful of guys running the new Ruger used Glock mags.
MBX basepads on ETS mags had a good number of failures. 41 round mags (With Taylor Freelance or TTI pads) got the reliability nod with MBX closely behind with a lot of folks running the 57 rounders. Only saw one 47 round MBX. Still lots of failures related to the Tac-Com parts. We did some T&E on buffers: Standard carbine buffer and spring, .308 buffer and spring, JP SCS and Shooting Innovations buffer system. Of those, the Shooting Innovations had the least movements and smoothest operation. Blitzkreig or Shooting Innovations sure seems to be the top two. Foxtrot Mike bolts, then JP bolts for reliability. Lots of QC10 lowers still in the self-built space.
My Kaw Valley stuffs feel inadequate now...
Thanks for the updates/ info
I have an ATI Milsport and a Grand Power Stribog. Both are 100% reliable and a kick in the pants to shoot. Very accurate and both are priced great. ATI takes glock mags and the Stribog mags are high quality and inexpensive. 2 good alternatives.
Seems to me that the MPX mostly suffers because of the extra large magazines that people are running in those competitions. I have a gen 1 and a gen 2 and with factory sig magazines I've never had any issues. I've run both gen 1 and gen 2 in a sudo stress test mode in that I've put 500-600 rounds through them in a single session. Using a suppressor, no oil and lots of mag dumps I've never gotten the thing to jam up. I don't really keep track of round count after a certain point, my gen 1 is probably close to that 10k round mark. Hope I don't start seeing the issues mentioned.
I have had the chance to shoot a gen1 in full auto which was pretty cool. The MPX was actually easier to keep on target than the MP5 in full auto we were shooting that day.
Do you guys load rounds differently for your 9mm pistols than you do your 9mm PCC?
Yup. Light bullets with a slower powder in a PCC compared to heavy bullets and a fast powder for pistol.
115s for PCC and 124s for pistol and 165s for revo.
Light bullets over more, slower powder better works with the platform I suppose, and is more efficient.
I've loaded both subs and non for my mpx and mp5s. They all worked well. Going to stick with subs going forward though. For my .45 PPC I just make a standard load.
Yes, with some caveats...it depends on how your system is set up. With 16" barrels, if you plan to run at top speed with light recoil, you want a faster powder. If you have a lot of cyclic mass, slower powder. In both cases, lighter bullets. But if you are running a 4 to 6" barrel, you can load them pretty close to pistol and not have any issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irving
Slower powders can still have pressure high enough that you are opening the chamber at pressures that are too high. That is what leads to the case separations and extractor blow-outs. Fast powder, light bullet alleviates that issue for the most part. Accuracy might suffer a little bit since the SDs will be larger, but in most cases, will still be 3 or 4 times more accurate than a pistol. The faster powders also tend to run cleaner than the slower powders in PCCs. With the 90 to 115 grain 9mm bullets, it does help to go to HPs to get a little longer bullet to improve accuracy. Based on how some 9mm PCC barrels are chambered, some 9mm loads that might be great for your pistol won't even chamber in some PCCs. We have seen a lot of bullets left in the lands and an empty case with a powder shower at "Unload and show clear".
What about for an SBR 9mm with a 7-8 inch barrel?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser
Given the issues with Xtreme bullets, can you recommend any other (good) current sources for the 165's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoser
Been having trouble finding much of anything in the way of heavy 9mm jacketed/plated lately....
MarkCO,Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Are you seeing anyone using the new(ish) MBX PCCs? Or CKArms PCCs? If so, good or bad?