Colt Revolver... Help Identify Model, Year & Maybe a Value

This was my dad's whom passed away back in 05. This Colt is old and I don't really know what its worth or what year it is. Anyone like to help out with a littl info on this gun.

Only markings are:

No Serial # which does not make since. No grinding anywhere so did Colt make revolvers back in these days "what ever year that may be" without Serial #'s?
Colt?s PT FA MFG CO HARTFORD. CT. USA.
PATD AUG 5, 1884. JUL 4, 1905. OCT 5, 1926

There is the Colt horse on the left side and of course on the handles. There is a whole in the very center and bottom of the butt end of the grips for lanyard. There is also an old small piece of paper inside the handles that looks to be 100 years old with a set of numbers on it. Maybe ?According to Geraldo? this was from Al Capone?s Vault! Drop box link below:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dk5im1be8...yFN14h4la?dl=0

SN not under the grips stamped on the frame. Also not on the frame anyplace? No caliber stamped on the bbl?

What caliber?

That gun should have a SN. I haven't owned a Colt revolver in years but maybe somewhere on the frame.

Looks like a Colt Police Positive Special:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_P...sitive_Special

According to the wiki, Colt's most produced DA revolver, made from 1908 to 1995 (wow I didn't realize they made them that late!)

According to an online source, if it's a Police Positive the SN should be on the frame where the crane swings out.

Actually, looking at it closer it seems more likely to be a Colt Official Police:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Official_Police

Serial number should be in the same place. Swing the cylinder open and look on the frame where the crane swings out.

Colt serial number data base -

https://www.colt.com/serial-lookup

Looks like a New Service to me. But it's hard to tell how big it actually is. Is this a large frame gun or smaller frame? The hole in the bottom of the grip frame is for a lanyard loop.

I just posted new photo's guys. I removed the grips carefully and I didn't get a picture with the cylinder open. However, I looked from each angle and there is nothing in there either. I see no SN anywhere except wrote on the piece of paper which I no longer can make out actually. I seen the online Colt SN search but that does not help me as I can't make that out. Maybe someone that can enhance the picture with software can get the numbers off it. This is the first time I removed the grips since I originally brought it home just after dad passed back in 2005 so maybe 2006. That notebook paper is old as dirt! Please check out the new pictures to see if anything now helps to identify specifically what the heck this is. It is a 38 I can tell that for sure but I have never fired it. Tight and locks up great. Very tight!

Very similiar for sure except the grips and I'd say that could have been a variance to each model for personal perference. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Martinjmpr

Actually, looking at it closer it seems more likely to be a Colt Official Police:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Official_Police

Serial number should be in the same place. Swing the cylinder open and look on the frame where the crane swings out.

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No sir and no sir!

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Originally Posted by BlasterBob

SN not under the grips stamped on the frame. Also not on the frame anyplace? No caliber stamped on the bbl?

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Bailey, I think I'd say its a large frame or med. Its not what I consider small at all.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Looks like a New Service to me. But it's hard to tell how big it actually is. Is this a large frame gun or smaller frame? The hole in the bottom of the grip frame is for a lanyard loop.

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Thanks for all the help. More pictures added! https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dk5im1be8...yFN14h4la?dl=0

I didn't think the New Service was chambered in .38 but apparently it was beginning in the 30s.

This pretty much is a match with some little differences. No rear fixed sight but the groove in frame type. Thanks Bailey... any comment on what this thing is estimated value is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_New_Service

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

I didn't think the New Service was chambered in .38 but apparently it was beginning in the 30s.

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New Service values can be all over the board. Condition/originality is everything. I'm still puzzled why no serial number. And it's still hard to say since it's hard to tell the size whether it's a NS or an Official Police. The NS is a BIG revolver...like an N-framed S&W (.44 Mag size).

I don't think it is what you consider a big frame. I have a 38 Combat Masterpiece and a Ruger 44 SRHawk and this gun Bailey is the size of my Combat Masterpiece in relation to frame size. I tell you what I think now after looking at the pictures of many others and online sales. I seen the big 44's that showed Eley on the barrel and SN's and such on a few. I think the barrel may have been changed at some point back in the day and that screw on the side is a bit mared from imporper size screw driver from taking the gun down I suppose. Barrel may have came off a gun that listed SN's on the frame and that somone transferred that SN onto paper and stuck it in the grips. Just my thoughts on it. So, it may be a hack job or not!

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

New Service values can be all over the board. Condition/originality is everything. I'm still puzzled why no serial number. And it's still hard to say since it's hard to tell the size whether it's a NS or an Official Police. The NS is a BIG revolver...like an N-framed S&W (.44 Mag size).

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Interesting. I have a similar looking Police Positive. It is what I'd call a small frame, 4" barrel with hard rubber grips. I don't remember if it has a serial number, will have to dig it out of underground storage next week.

**Obviously I was wrong, I will stick to S&W info from here on out lol. bczandm is the man, nice to know he’s here!**

Hmm, looks like every OP I?ve ever seen. However they?ve all had the serial number stamped on the crane as well as the frame. Maybe take it over to the Colt forum, see if the guys there can help you out.

So your going underground! Ha

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Originally Posted by Hummer

Interesting. I have a similar looking Police Positive. It is what I'd call a small frame, 4" barrel with hard rubber grips. I don't remember if it has a serial number, will have to dig it out of underground storage next week.

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I have just sent Colt an email and they or a young sounding gentelment said they all had SN's no matter how old! OK.

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Originally Posted by Doc45

Hmm, looks like every OP I?ve ever seen. However they?ve all had the serial number stamped on the crane as well as the frame. Maybe take it over to the Colt forum, see if the guys there can help you out.

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Could it be a blued version of this gun?
Attachment 77664

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Originally Posted by Skywalker

I have just sent Colt an email and they or a young sounding gentelment said they all had SN's no matter how old! OK.

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a
I believe they did all have serial numbers but they were not always unique between models. When you do a serial number search on a early 1900's you may have 10 possible matches. They did finally start using unique ones in the 30's perhaps I don't recall. The Police Positives can be hard to id as barrels were swapped routinely. Making it even difficult to determine caliber.

T. B. Turner, that my friend is a bingo! Exactly right, perfect with a slightly different set of grips. You guys, all of you are great and thanks so much. Still a mystery about the SN but hey... My dad fought in the Battle of the Bulge with his brothers William, Harce, Clyde and Dad or Harold. William didn't make it out. I'm thinking, did dad bring his side arm home? He even had an old pictures of a long rope strung out for what looked like 75 yards with horses tied to it nose to nose. He was infantryman if I remember correctly. Dad was born in 1919 and I'm thinking all this would line up with an Army pistol issued during these times would you not think?

Again, greatly appreciate giving this a real model I can positively identify with.

I placed two more pictures in the above link just after a Ballistol bath. It may be old but its solid and I would shoot it but don't think I'll chance it. 5 inch barrel on this weapon.

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Originally Posted by T. B. Turner

Could it be a blued version of this gun?
Attachment 77664

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Played around with the note in Photoshop. Looks like 110588. Enter that in the Colt database and one of the hits is 1915 POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL.

Without a mark on this gun from where a SN would have been I can only assume it does not have one and maybe it did at one time but don't feel this was ever a illegal thing going on. Maybe back then they didn't care to change something out and explains the SN written on the paper within the grips. I hope its not a problem for me to own my dads possible service weapon without a SN.

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Originally Posted by DeadElephant

a
I believe they did all have serial numbers but they were not always unique between models. When you do a serial number search on a early 1900's you may have 10 possible matches. They did finally start using unique ones in the 30's perhaps I don't recall. The Police Positives can be hard to id as barrels were swapped routinely. Making it even difficult to determine caliber.

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So is the 110588 out of all those digits all that is required? That does pull up a 1915 POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL. However, the picture posted by T.B. is exactly right. Appreciate the help and if you have a digital enhanced picture of that SN would you email it to me please?

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Originally Posted by Mtneer

Played around with the note in Photoshop. Looks like 110588. Enter that in the Colt database and one of the hits is 1915 POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL.

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Anyone have a lanyard loop for this gun and correct I'd really like to buy one now that we know what I have here.

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Originally Posted by Hummer

Interesting. I have a similar looking Police Positive. It is what I'd call a small frame, 4" barrel with hard rubber grips. I don't remember if it has a serial number, will have to dig it out of underground storage next week.

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Originally Posted by Skywalker

So your going underground! Ha

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Yea, there's no lakes on the property. [Coffee]

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Originally Posted by Mtneer

Played around with the note in Photoshop. Looks like 110588. Enter that in the Colt database and one of the hits is 1915 POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL.

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That's pretty cool, you did good. I thought about trying Photoshop enhancement.... Still a mystery about the lack of a serial number. Maybe another one of Al Capone's.

I have a similar Colt Army Special
The barrel is stamped Colt Army Special 32-20 WCF
The serial number is on the crane and the frame under the crane
I pulled the side plate, and the serial number is on the inside of the plate - may check there.

I am a Colt collector and can assure you many models of Colts have variants that don't have serial numbers. Keep in mind serial numbers were not required prior to 1968. While Colt rarely intentionally let guns leave the factory without serial numbers (even most of their prototypes are numbered) guns did leave the factory without serial numbers because:
1) the frame may have been shipped as a replacement part. I have a very rare SAA from the 1880's that does not have a serial number. One of 25 known however it is well known among collectors that Colt shipped 200 SAA frames to the US Gov. as replacement parts.
2) Some guns known as lunch box specials were, uh "borrowed" from the factory, assembled by employees prior to all markings being applied and smuggled out in their lunch boxes. There are many known 1911a1's that are Clearly Colts with no markings
3) Factory errors. Even Colt made shipping mistakes
4) Colt is known to have used virtually every part ever made (they were cheap bastards!) and at times when guns were needed took stuff from the parts bins or overrun parts that were stored for years to assemble and ship guns. Some of these are known to be lacking or having the wrong markings.
5) And quite honestly the most common issue is that the gun was refinished and the serial number has been removed.

Regarding legality no serial number guns are 100% legal if made without the serial number. However its heavily frowned upon by the BATF to remove a serial number from a gun. Given the photos you posted I don't believe your gun has been refinished, but closer examination would be required to make a final call.

Bob

Sorry, I didn?t read the whole thread.

In the original post you mentioned a 1926 patent date?

I wouldn?t think a firearm made in 1915 would have a 1926 patent date. Unless that date is on the barrel and maybe it was rebarreled at some point?

Just trying to learn a little here myself.

Bob, I really appreciate that and it helps with understanding the issue here. I suppose I would like to say this is the Army Special and I would love to think this was my dads service pistol and that would just be the best and time frame and period would fit IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bczandm

I am a Colt collector and can assure you many models of Colts have variants that don't have serial numbers. Keep in mind serial numbers were not required prior to 1968. While Colt rarely intentionally let guns leave the factory without serial numbers (even most of their prototypes are numbered) guns did leave the factory without serial numbers because:
1) the frame may have been shipped as a replacement part. I have a very rare SAA from the 1880's that does not have a serial number. One of 25 known however it is well known among collectors that Colt shipped 200 SAA frames to the US Gov. as replacement parts.
2) Some guns known as lunch box specials were, uh "borrowed" from the factory, assembled by employees prior to all markings being applied and smuggled out in their lunch boxes. There are many known 1911a1's that are Clearly Colts with no markings
3) Factory errors. Even Colt made shipping mistakes

4) Colt is known to have used virtually every part ever made (they were cheap bastards!) and at times when guns were needed took stuff from the parts bins or overrun parts that were stored for years to assemble and ship guns.
5) And quite honestly the most common issue is that the gun was refinished and the serial number has been removed.

Regarding legality no serial number guns are 100% legal if made without the serial number. However its heavily frowned upon by the BATF to remove a serial number from a gun. Given the photos you posted I don't believe your gun has been refinished, but closer examination would be required to make a final call.

Bob

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Thanks davsel and if I had this checked by a smith I would let them remove the sides and such.

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Originally Posted by davsel

I have a similar Colt Army Special
The barrel is stamped Colt Army Special 32-20 WCF
The serial number is on the crane and the frame under the crane
I pulled the side plate, and the serial number is on the inside of the plate - may check there.

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Ray, I don't think that the 1915 find is my pistol. Its a spot on identical with the Army Special and jpeg posted up by T.B. Turner a bit prior to the 1915 comment.

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Originally Posted by ray1970

Sorry, I didn?t read the whole thread.

In the original post you mentioned a 1926 patent date?

I wouldn?t think a firearm made in 1915 would have a 1926 patent date. Unless that date is on the barrel and maybe it was rebarreled at some point?

Just trying to learn a little here myself.

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Found another picture that is a close match.

Attachment 77668

Thanks T. B. I think the Army Special is spot on though.

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Originally Posted by T. B. Turner

Found another picture that is a close match.

Attachment 77668

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I had the chance to dig out my old Colt. On the 3.5" barrel it is stamped Pocket Positive 32 Police CTG (so it's not a Police Positive). I'm not certain but I think this will fire both .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt. I'm not clear on the various .32 cal cartridges of the time. On top of the barrel is a patent date of July 4, 1905. A five digit serial number is stamped on the crane but not under the grips or anywhere else on the outside. From the Colt serial number database it was manufactured in 1913. It belonged to my grandfather who was born in 1889 and served in WWI.

I have two other revolvers of his, an H&R The American Double Action marked .32 S&W CTGF, and an H&R Young America Double Action marked 22 Rim Fire. The .22 will fire .22 short and .22 long. Both are nickle plated with octagonal barrels and both have serial numbers on the heel of the grip. I think these were made some time after 1905. I believe they originally sold new for about $2.97 and $4.97 respectively, cheap enough so that everyone in America could afford to carry a pocket pistol.

Thanks for this discussion. It's fun to delve into the history of old firearms.




https://www.ar-15.co/attachment.php?...9&d=1554845511

Attachment 77759

Sorry to bring this back but had an interesting discussion yesterday with a very long time Colt collector. He said Colt had so many police departments ordering the gun Colt renamed it in 1927 as the Official Police. Just a bit of possible trivia for a fine old revolver.

Confirmed with a phone call to Colt this morning.