Hard flooring options

We have a contract on a house here in OK that needs its vintage carpet ripped out before we move in. We may or may not re-carpet the bedrooms. Unsure at this point. So this would extend at least to the living room, hall, and kitchen/dining room.

The house has a crawl space, so it should have a subfloor to contend with, in case that affects answers. Not a slab.

We are looking at several options:

tile
LVT planking to mimic wood
engineered hardwood
hardwood

We find LVT fascinating for its look and cost, but worry about durability against scratches. Hardwood is obviously the most expensive.

Looking forward to your thoughts, preferably based on user or installer/gen contractor experience.

Thanks!

We're about 10 years on the "wood look tile" we had installed on the first floor . . . ripped out all the nasty carpet and smaller tile. We wanted something that was easy to clean, durable, etc. It's been as good (or better) than expected. Have a 105 lb. GSD and he doesn't scratch it up like he would do with wood. Cleans up easy by vacuum/mop. Doesn't chip or dent if you drop something heavy on it. Stil looks like wood.

I just can't imagine that the LVP would be any less scratch resistant than any type of wood or laminate option. Hardwood can be sanded and refinished, and some styles of engineered wood could theoretically be sanded, but probably only once. Not sure if that is a factor for you though.

I'm not sold on the benefit of sanding/refinishing for hardwood. Given that would mean what is essentially moving out of the house for the duration of the project, and I'm sure it's not cheap, I almost wonder if it's only a benefit for those with money to burn vs just replacing a floor in 10 years (and I imagine in 10 years the improvements of non-hardwood will be in place).

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Originally Posted by Ramsker

We're about 10 years on the "wood look tile" we had installed on the first floor . . . ripped out all the nasty carpet and smaller tile. We wanted something that was easy to clean, durable, etc. It's been as good (or better) than expected. Have a 105 lb. GSD and he doesn't scratch it up like he would do with wood. Cleans up easy by vacuum/mop. Doesn't chip or dent if you drop something heavy on it. Stil looks like wood.

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We are considering it. A lot depends on what we find for the subfloor during the inspection period.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

I'm not sold on the benefit of sanding/refinishing for hardwood. Given that would mean what is essentially moving out of the house for the duration of the project, and I'm sure it's not cheap, I almost wonder if it's only a benefit for those with money to burn vs just replacing a floor in 10 years (and I imagine in 10 years the improvements of non-hardwood will be in place).

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A year or so ago a coworker got a quote of 3.50 a foot for refinishing. Probably more now.

Yeah the dust has me delaying on refinishing too.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

I'm not sold on the benefit of sanding/refinishing for hardwood. Given that would mean what is essentially moving out of the house for the duration of the project, and I'm sure it's not cheap, I almost wonder if it's only a benefit for those with money to burn vs just replacing a floor in 10 years (and I imagine in 10 years the improvements of non-hardwood will be in place).

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That's what I figured. I don't know that the ability to resand even enters my mind when choosing a floor. Back in the days when you built a house your grandkids could grow up in, sure.

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Originally Posted by Erni

A year or so ago a coworker got a quote of 3.50 a foot for refinishing. Probably more now.

Yeah the dust has me delaying on refinishing too.

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Just plugged in some figures and I'm getting $3.23 per sq/ft for sand and refinish + another $1 per sq/ft for dustless sanding.

That's already more expensive than the grade of laminate I put into my house, or even tile.

Including labor or just mtl?

That's including labor, but it's also just an Xactimate estimate amount.

Oh, do you mean my reference to laminate pricing? I was thinking just the material since I was the one that installed it. I want to say that my stuff was like $3 sq/ft, but I don't really remember.

I?d go for one of the wood or laminate options with the subfloor. I?d avoid the tile. Any bit of flex on the subfloor and eventually the grout or tile may crack.

But having a subfloor isn't an issue for kitchens, laundry, and bathrooms.

I think there are certain crack isolation membranes that help with that.

https://www.custombuildingproducts.c...-membrane.aspx

I've put in a butt-ton of tile in my life. Currently in a whole-house wood look tile that I installed. If you install it right, it isn't ever breaking on tile or grout lines. Even if your shit settles by 6" on each side.

Ceramic actually flexes quite a bit before it breaks. Each wood-look tile can tolerate at least 3-5mm of flex before cracking. That's an inch every 10 feet, or so. Now, if you have drastic settling, the whole tile floor will crack as if it is concrete - in a lateral line going through the tiles, it doesn't matter where the edges or grout are.

Tile has two IMPORTANT factors:

1) Above all else, the tiles - especially the lengthy wood look ones - MUST BE BACKBUTTERED. RULE #1. You can lay out a grid of say, 4x2 tiles, spray them down with a spraybottle (always prewet surfaces), quickly spread your thinset over the block, then go to your surface, quickly spray it down, quickly set your thinset down (all lines should be parallel, swirls are from idiot installers) and slap your tiles in. You can lay pretty fast this way, but this is done RIGHT. I recommend using the cheapest thinset ($8/bag) mixed with the normal liquid ratio but comprised of 50% water and 50% latex admix ($28.00/2.5 gallons). This is very strong but also very cost effective.

2) When you install this way, you can drop a sledgehammer on the tile and it won't crack. (It'll just dent a bit). You can intentionally hit the tiles about a dozen or two dozen times with a claw hammer and they won't crack. You can neglect to install grout for years and they won't go anywhere. How do I know this personally? Well, let's just say don't install all your tile and then decide you want to upgrade to HVAC.

3) If you don't backbutter, many of the tiles will start to sound a little hollow when you walk on them, and over time the impacts will pulverise the thinset into dust and it'll come off. Also, if you drop anything on it, it will crack.

4) RULE #2: ALWAYS BUY AND STORE QUITE A BIT EXTRA (15% overpurchase SF). Tile lasts a looooooong ass time. Because it's not an interlocking design, lets say your floor settles 5" and you get a lateral crack running across a room. Well, fix it. Tile varieties don't stay in stores very long - months, at most, so you'll never be able to buy it when you need it, and they go out permanently. Manufacturers don't do "throwbacks".

Advantages: Sheer longevity and bullet-proof. Yet, readily repairable, if you don't mind pulverizing ceramic with a hammer until progressively pissed off). Fireproof. Pet proof. Renter proof. Crazy ex girlfriend proof. Bug proof. Shit proof. Immune to HIV. Makes you better at BBQ'ing. Makes you want a pool. Makes you want pool parties. Makes you install a pool. Makes you post fliers for pool parties.

Disadvantages: Young kids falling on tile isn't ideal, may as well be concrete. Even laminate has a ever-so-slight give. For the same reason, slightly harder on your feet. I've never noticed cold being much of an issue tbh, but that's me. (I actually prefer it, e.g. summer time). Also only two hairy old guys show up to your pool party, not any of the nice women you had in mind.


That said, the newer PVC flooring would be a lot easier to install.

ETA: Most/many tile installers horribly f$#$ installs up. Even if you are paying someone to install, you REALLY need to know the correct way so you can fire the idiots. People are happy hiring them because hey, even a crap job of tile will last a year ... more than long enough to write a review and pay a guy. If an installer tries to tell you that "swirls" in thinset are right, or that you don't need backbutter, you need to terminate ASAP. And these guys go on installing it incorrectly for sometimes 30+ years. Don't just expect "old" to mean "right".

Hardwood finishes, while not immune from damage (hard object drops) are extremely durable. We have the Bono finish on our new 3.5" Red Oak floors and it's damn tough. As I understand it, tile damage is a bitch to have repaired as compared to hardwood.

Eh, I've installed hardwood (tongue and groove) and I don't know any other way to repair damage than to pull it all back from the wall. Maybe better installers have a trick, but since they interlock you either have to rip out the structure that holds it together or uninstall the whole floor to get back to the damaged area. I consider that to be a bitch. Tile, you can use anything but an impact drill to cut out just the one piece. Vibtraroty cutters, cutoff wheels on grout, diamond tipped hole saws, diamond edged saws-all (with a pilot) etc. Once you're through to the concrete board you can generally get it to pry up the rest of it pretty well, then just scrape the thinset, mix a small batch of thinset in a paper cup, and reinstall.

I also do grout in very small batches (paper cup) so tbh, fixing damage isn't much more time over the install, save for breaking the f'n tile off. Cutting is a win, pulverizing until a crack develops can work too but it sucks on well installed. (impact drills imo cause premature wear on the surrounding adhesion)

The thing to remember with refinishing hardwood, is that you don't just refinish a small area, you refinish ALL uninterrupted floors. So the difference between replacing a cracked tile and refinishing your entire ground floor is likely substantial. If the sanders don't do a good job, you'll be painting base trim as well.

Right now we are leaning toward some LVT/EVP stuff.

We like this one:
https://www.lumberliquidators.com/ll...VPBK7/10043228

Have a sample of that and a sample of the Brazilian cherry that we got today. Plan to do some scratch and dent tests. They are both 28mil wear layer.

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Originally Posted by Irving

The thing to remember with refinishing hardwood, is that you don't just refinish a small area, you refinish ALL uninterrupted floors. So the difference between replacing a cracked tile and refinishing your entire ground floor is likely substantial. If the sanders don't do a good job, you'll be painting base trim as well.

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Truth! We were evaced for 6 days due to wildfire. Power was out so the icemaker in the fridge melted, ruining a 6 square foot section of oak flooring. Since it's all connected, and covered by insurance, they refinished about 900 sq ft. We had to evac for another couple days during the sanding and varnishing. Looks and feels great, likely will last another 25 years or more. But I'd consider a modern option if we ever have to rebuild.

I've installed a truck load or two of Armstrong lvp. It's fairly tolerant of scratches even in a rental use

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

I'm not sold on the benefit of sanding/refinishing for hardwood. Given that would mean what is essentially moving out of the house for the duration of the project, and I'm sure it's not cheap, I almost wonder if it's only a benefit for those with money to burn vs just replacing a floor in 10 years (and I imagine in 10 years the improvements of non-hardwood will be in place).

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? Just move the furniture in to another room for the day, no different than shampooing carpets. The process of sanding is pretty much dustless and the finish dries in about 24 hours. Then move furniture to the next room and so on.

at the cost of an entirely new non-hardwood floor, though?

On a related note, something I find dismaying is the replacement of natural stone with "printed" ceramic tiles to mimic it, that cost about 85% of the real thing. (and about 95% of the cost of natural stone after installation). Like... WHY is that necessary?

My main source used to be southerlands - was awesome for granite, marble, etc. Now, even they don't have a single natural tile. None. Problem with ceramic vs natural stone is the surface of ceramic isn't "lifetime", it is possible to wear through it in super-high-traffic places - like commercial.

Now there's commercial tile places that can still get it on order at like 300% rates.

And I have a hard time imagining natural stone going out of style, ever. Granite/marble tile still improves values and people think it costs more than it actually does. I did a full wall-to-wall bathroom in black marble (with white streaks) once, which I LOVE, now it seems like I won't be able to ever again :/ there's also a depth to the crystals that printed ceramic can't mimic. /// sigh // end rant.

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Originally Posted by OxArt

Eh, I've installed hardwood (tongue and groove) and I don't know any other way to repair damage than to pull it all back from the wall. Maybe better installers have a trick, but since they interlock you either have to rip out the structure that holds it together or uninstall the whole floor to get back to the damaged area. I consider that to be a bitch. Tile, you can use anything but an impact drill to cut out just the one piece. Vibtraroty cutters, cutoff wheels on grout, diamond tipped hole saws, diamond edged saws-all (with a pilot) etc. Once you're through to the concrete board you can generally get it to pry up the rest of it pretty well, then just scrape the thinset, mix a small batch of thinset in a paper cup, and reinstall.

I also do grout in very small batches (paper cup) so tbh, fixing damage isn't much more time over the install, save for breaking the f'n tile off. Cutting is a win, pulverizing until a crack develops can work too but it sucks on well installed. (impact drills imo cause premature wear on the surrounding adhesion)

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You can cut an individual piece of hardwood out along with any protruding tongues and nail + edge glue a replacement in (cut the offending board down the middle and then pry it up half at a time). Takes a lot of patience and time.

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Originally Posted by CavSct1983

at the cost of an entirely new non-hardwood floor, though?

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Site finished floors you have to refinished every X years as that is just part of the process. A quality pre-finished floor will have 12 coats of poly or 4 coats of oil. The oil floor will have periodic no sanding re-oiling, but the poly should last a lifetime. If you buy a hardwood floor from me I would help you install it for free (sub floor ready) )[Beer]

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Originally Posted by William

You can cut an individual piece of hardwood out along with any protruding tongues and nail + edge glue a replacement in (cut the offending board down the middle and then pry it up half at a time). Takes a lot of patience and time.

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Yeah, I do weaved in repairs for water damage all the time for hardwood floors.

Laminate can't be patched in like that though, so once the floor is damaged, ALL of it gets replaced.

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Originally Posted by William

Site finished floors you have to refinished every X years as that is just part of the process. A quality pre-finished floor will have 12 coats of poly or 4 coats of oil. The oil floor will have periodic no sanding re-oiling, but the poly should last a lifetime. If you buy a hardwood floor from me I would help you install it for free (sub floor ready) )[Beer]

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I'm hopeful our new floor with Bona Traffic HD finish will outlast me.

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Originally Posted by Irving

Yeah, I do weaved in repairs for water damage all the time for hardwood floors.

Laminate can't be patched in like that though, so once the floor is damaged, ALL of it gets replaced.

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Depends on the product

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Originally Posted by Wulf202

Depends on the product

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Even when you can patch, new stuff won't be the same shade as the currently installed stuff, and since you can't refinish it, it'd still likely all be replaced.