Need Thoughts on an Ongoing Situation

Hey all. I've been in an interesting situation for about the last two weeks, and thought I'd get opinions from you all.

I suppose the story starts Monday the 23rd of last month. I'm not at home, my roommate is, and some sketchy looking guy comes to sell us a subscription to the Denver Post. Now, to the the best of my knowledge, the Denver post doesn't deliver in Greeley(I may be wrong). The guy makes a big deal of us being students, saying they offer a free subscription to current college students (again, never heard of such a thing) especially halfway through the school year. I live in an apartment building close to campus and there are several students in the building, so he claims to have sold several subscriptions. Needless to say this sounds to me like he's scouting to find where students live so he can break in when no one is around on vacation.

He leaves, then the next night my neighbors' apartment (two girls) has an attempted break in. All is quiet after then as most students left for the Thanksgiving holiday, and I take all my valuables with me when I leave. I returned this past weekend, and nothing had happened since I left. This past Sunday night, the guy came back and my neighbor caught him looking into her window around 3am. The cops are called and they start patrolling the area more heavily. Then last night, he comes back twice, cops are called both times, and only goes after apartments that belong to women. Upon giving a description to the police, they identify him as a registered sex offender in our area. He was chased off the second time by the boyfriend of the girl whose apartment he was looking into, and we haven't seen him. I have female neighbors on both sides and I gave them my phone number so they can call me if he shows up again (since I'm seconds away instead of the cops) and I can make my presence known.

So here's where I'd like to hear your opinions. Should he come back, what would be operating procedure? I told my neighbors to call me and the cops so I can diffuse any immediate threat (try to scare him off) and let the cops come and do their thing. I suppose my main concern would be, I don't think it would be legal for me to draw on him to hold him until the cops can arrive, and from his description, he's athletic and could outrun me. I carry a Surefire LED light, so I could blind him and attempt to tackle him and pin him until the cops get here, but that doesn't seem like a very smart idea either, (especially if he's armed.) Help!!

Click!

"Hi, I now have your pic standing at the window, and oh by the way, I'm armed. You want to stand there and wait for the cops, or do you want to run and have them pick you up later?"

Call the cops on the way out the door, and maintain cover.

blade at a 45 and draw down!

are you allowed to have a gun in the place you stay?

If you can assure it is him, hold him at gun point. at this point you know his background as a sex offender, he has made several attempts at trying to break in and possibly harm the girls and even yourself. more than likely this will happen at 3 am so you have plausible cause, he is a known threat, and your word will stand above his at all times because of his background.

besides, if it were me, I would rather get into some trouble holding a guy at gun point then to have known the guy was around, maybe got away from me then all of a sudden I find out later he rapes some girl, maybe your neighbor, or possibly even worse.

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Originally Posted by sniper7

are you allowed to have a gun in the place you stay?

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Yes, the on site landlords know I have them and know I carry ect.

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Originally Posted by SA Friday

Click!

"Hi, I now have your pic standing at the window, and oh by the way, I'm armed. You want to stand there and wait for the cops, or do you want to run and have them pick you up later?"

Call the cops on the way out the door, and maintain cover.

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+1 - Keep armed and make a good witness.

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Originally Posted by Batteriesnare

Yes, the on site landlords know I have them and know I carry ect.

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then i would hold him at gun point the second you verified it was the same guy. he is making threats to bodily injury as a known sex offender, you have made previous calls to the police that has been documented and now that the guy is back peeking in windows you have more than probable cause.
I am curious to see what Jim says on this one myself.

My general impression is that most agencies would prefer you stay out of it and let them handle it. I'd give the non-emergency number at your local police agency a call and ask what they suggest you do. keep in mind that regardless of what you do, if you do take action, it's possible for the bad guy to give you quite a bit of grief.

Keep in mind that online renters insurance is available at very low cost. While you are currently risking potential theft issues, longterm there are other potential problems, such as a fire. All of these losses can and should be covered.

Nothing is worth risking your life or a neighbors life for, and I think you are primarily worred about theft. Of course if you are worried about the female neighbors, I'd again defer to the local police agencies to see what they suggest. KEEP IN MIND MANY SEX OFFENDERS COMMITTED LESS SERIOUS CRIMES THAN YOU MIGHT EXPECT. Rapists and child molestors are a very small percentage of sex offenders and my experience is that they usually end up in jail.

For me, most "things" can be replaced. Let the insurance kick in. Potential threats to family and friends might be handled different.

I already have insurance, I'm not concerned about losing anything (and all my weapons are locked up unless I'm carrying them), I would feel horrible if he did go after anyone though.

lots of good advice here, probably best to follow it rather than any ideas I might have.

(I'd get a paintball gun and turn him orange, black and blue)

tag.

if you fear for your own life or the life or your neighbors, I would say do what you can.

If things get serious, hold him at gunpoint, if he runs, let him run. Atleast you scared him off.

If he threatens your life, put that gun to good use and remember these words "I feared for my life".

Just act with integrity and honesty and everything will be fine. Don't be a vigilante, but if push comes to shove, be a man and protect the innocent.

Remember, there was a day when there were no police to protect you.

If you can't count on your neighbors and community, then really, what's the point?

If you have a few buddies that are readily availible,, You could always start a social walking club.. Exercise is suppose to be good for you. (So I've heard.) Just hold a "meeting" everytime He is seen. Now if your "route" just happens to parallel his,,Just sayin'.. No need to be confrontational or anything.. I'm sure if He has at least one brain cell, after a few times He might decide that He needs to take his activities elsewhere..

I was involved with something like this, many...many moons, ago. Anyway I told the girls to put up flyers with the guys picture stating that he was looking in windows and to call the police if you see him around. I don't know if the police there would like it or not, but it worked in WV. The guy doing it there was a student, after the flyers went up he dropped out and was never seen again.

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Originally Posted by Tora

I was involved with something like this, many...many moons, ago. Anyway I told the girls to put up flyers with the guys picture stating that he was looking in windows and to call the police if you see him around. I don't know if the police there would like it or not, but it worked in WV. The guy doing it there was a student, after the flyers went up he dropped out and was never seen again.

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This is good advice, if a description was given to poloce, then maybe a sketch can be made of it and printed off. Post those pics all over the area, if nothing else it makes everyone in the area aware of the current situation.

It would be good if more things like this could be broadcast on the news....but there to busy talking about Tiger Woods and how he ran into a fuckin tree in Florida. So, your local situation of actual human harm really isn't important right now(obvious sarcasm, and frustration with the media).

Good luck to you and the others in your building, I also like the idea of letting other men in the building know and making them aware of the situation so they may be able to assist, if something were to happen.

As a matter of fact, if you can get fliers made of the drawings of the perp. Had them out to everyone in your building. Hang one in the entry are and hand them out to all other close neighbors in the area so as to make as many folks aware of this as possible.

Yah that's pretty solid advice. Avoiding violence is always best whenever possible.

But like I said, don't let the law scare you into impotence. If you're the last line of protection between your neighbors and a rapist.

Don't just lay down and let it happen while waiting for the police to show up.

That happens all to often, and I for one couldn't live with myself if my neighbor's life was flipped upside down because I was "afraid".

Seems like decent advice so far. I'll add this:

Watch this video and see if any of the information is relevant to your situation. I'd consider getting a criminal attorney ready to respond to the scene on your behalf in the event something happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I would be looking at some less lethal options, both for you and the ladies. Full-on, bear strength pepper spray might be one option, or pepper balls for a paintball gun. A camera with a high powered flash might be a good idea, too. Not knowing the nature of the original sex crime(anything from public urination to rape), it is impossible to guage the potential for this individual to commit a violent act. As others have stated, drawing a firearm is a last resort, likely to have serious consequences unless you can prove a threat to life and safety. Perhaps one of the ladies that saw him looking through the window at 3 am would be willing to swear out a restraining order, as that would give you a bit more latitude in response to his presence, if he were to violate the terms of the TRO.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot

Your committing a very serious crime if you draw your weapon on someone that isn't prosecuted with a felony afterwords. The critical element of a citizens arrest ... FELONY. Otherwise, your in the wind for all sorts of charges and will probably never be able to own a firearm again.

Be careful following the advice of the "draw on anybody" peanut gallery. Using your CCW should be an option of last resort. Instead, work out a solution that does not require a firearm unless he is armed.

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+1
I hope an LEO can chime in here. Might be worth a call to either the sheriff or PD... get their take on it...

Drawing down on someone inapropriatly could be Felony Menacing... Where your punishment could be worse than Mr. Douche bag...

Don't get me wrong, do what you need to do, to protect yourself and those around you, just know what the consequences of each scenario can be.

Keep a bat in hand and your gun concealed, only draw it with the intention of pulling the trigger.

Well that from my armchair...

Might be worth your time and theirs to teach the ladies next to you how to defend themselves, should this guy get inside... Take them to a local range that rents guns, let them try a few out.

Just a thought

Here's what I think.


Next time,

1. Call cops.

2. Open carry but don't draw unless you need to shoot. Once you've drawn, you don't have any more ways left to stress your commands.

3. Tell him that he must stay where he is lest further action be taken.

4. Wait for cops.

5. Transfer authority to cops.

6. Feel really cool.

I had an acquaintance who was being bothered by a peeping tom, on an ongoing basis. He finally took a bunch of plywood, painted it black, and drove many long pointed nails through it. He laid them around his house, pointy ends up, awoke to screaming, wailing. Bood trail out to road, was never bothered again. Just sayin'...

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Originally Posted by motorep

I had an acquaintance who was being bothered by a peeping tom, on an ongoing basis. He finally took a bunch of plywood, painted it black, and drove many long pointed nails through it. He laid them around his house, pointy ends up, awoke to screaming, wailing. Bood trail out to road, was never bothered again. Just sayin'...

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This will get you jail time for sure. Just sayin'...

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Originally Posted by Tim K

This will get you jail time for sure. Just sayin'...

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Not likely at an apartment complex since more than one person lives there and they couldn't prove who it was. Also, that's only IF he reports it.

Go ahead and ignore all this evidence all over the internet though. ;)

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Originally Posted by Tim K

This will get you jail time for sure. Just sayin'...

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Wasn't me, and no, it didn't.

First I must reiterate that am sorry this is happening, and I pray that that pervert is caught and pays for what he is doing.

Second, I have to say, that in a very weird way, I think we are all better off having these discussions when they arise. We can all learn from these unfortunate circumstances and educate ourselves on how, and how not to handle different situations, whether they are happening to us, or someone we know, or god forbid this happen to someone else in the future.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I agree, deadly force is always a last resort. I also agree that protecting yourself and your loved ones and neighbors has to be at the forefront of your mind at all times.

Sometimes I feel that there are more laws out there that protect the criminal more than they protect the victim, and if so many people didn't have to be afraid of going to jail themselves while protecting there home, family and neighbors, crime would be a different thing. Here in the US, you get caught stealing you go to jail, in some countries they just cut your hands off and move on...in this country you get caught raping someone you go to jail, in some countries they cut your dick off....in this country you protect yourself and shoot someone while they are peering in your windows, YOU go to jail, in other countries you do that and the cops help clean up the perps blood off you stoop, shake you hand and say "thanks for getting that POS off the street"........now I realize this is a topic for a MUCH different discussion, and will get off my soap box now but I needed to get that off my chest.

Anyway, back to what I was talking about originally. I came to this site because I was a gun enthusiast, in the short time I have been here I have learned so much about so many different things. it is these types of discussion that help all of us and make all of us aware of different situations that, god forbid, someday, one of may be a part of ourselves.

Ok, rant over, back to your regularly scheduled program......

Maybe we should look into a sub-forum for posting scenarios like this one, and the one I posted a while back. I know that too many sub-forums is the death of a board, but I thought it was worth a suggestion. Unless someone wants to start a CCW Trade Association and have monthly meetings at an Embassy Suites to discuss this kind of stuff in person. Might be kind of fun and would have less stuff out there on the internet.

I would like to have more of these discussions to raise everyones awareness of how to handle these situations

I agree - so long as we could also get the perspective from LEOs on the site as to how THEY would handle it and from any attorney's we might have on the site to hear the law's position on the subjects.

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Originally Posted by spleify

As a matter of fact, if you can get fliers made of the drawings of the perp.

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You don't need one, His photo is on line, he's a registered sex offender.

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Originally Posted by Tora

You don't need one, His photo is on line, he's a registered sex offender.

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Well even better, print off a bunch of copies and hang them up everywhere.

If you need help going around and hanging posters and making folks in the area aware I would be happy to help out.

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Originally Posted by theGinsue

I agree - so long as we could also get the perspective from LEOs on the site as to how THEY would handle it and from any attorney's we might have on the site to hear the law's position on the subjects.

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I agree with this 100%, if a bunch of us got together we would just be plaing arm chair quarter back, with no real direction.

I think a big reason that LEO's dont chime in all that often is that they don't want to be publicly known, I completely understand and respect that. So with that in mind, how about having a "Private Members only" section. I am a member of a couple of other boards(not gun related but for a different hobby, saltwater fishtanks), and there are certian ways a board member can become an an "Premiun" member of the club. Paid membership, some require you attend two club meeting in a calendar year.
If there was a private area where members could talk and it not be visible to EVERYONE that might happen upon the site, then maybe more LEO's or even lawyers might chime in. Make this area free or maybe more easaly acceptable to LEO's and lawyers, so they might feel a little more comfortable.

Thank you all for your input! A few updates:

After discussing with the landlords, we've posted warnings at all building entrances, hallways, and around the perimeter of the property. Thankfully there has not been a reported incident since. The cops have made their presence much stronger in recent days, and the apartment company has posted an all night security team at the building for the time being.

Again I appreciate everyones' thoughts, and I agree a discussion of situations would be a valuable resource!

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Originally Posted by spleify

I agree with this 100%, if a bunch of us got together we would just be plaing arm chair quarter back, with no real direction.

I think a big reason that LEO's dont chime in all that often is that they don't want to be publicly known, I completely understand and respect that. So with that in mind, how about having a "Private Members only" section. I am a member of a couple of other boards(not gun related but for a different hobby, saltwater fishtanks), and there are certian ways a board member can become an an "Premiun" member of the club. Paid membership, some require you attend two club meeting in a calendar year.
If there was a private area where members could talk and it not be visible to EVERYONE that might happen upon the site, then maybe more LEO's or even lawyers might chime in. Make this area free or maybe more easaly acceptable to LEO's and lawyers, so they might feel a little more comfortable.

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This just reinforces my idea to start a trade association. I'm going to look into it a little bit more and see how realistic it would be. Lawyers and police officers are most likely reluctant to chime in because it opens them up to a professional liability exposure.

Good to hear it Batteriesnare. As I know you're aware, it's still best practice to always be aware of your surroundings and pay particular attention to anyone/anything that seems out-of-place.

In reference to Sturtles last comment, in this type of situation, I'm glad to be a computer geek - I'm typically not subject to liability issues based on what I advise.

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Originally Posted by Batteriesnare

Thank you all for your input! A few updates:

After discussing with the landlords, we've posted warnings at all building entrances, hallways, and around the perimeter of the property. Thankfully there has not been a reported incident since. The cops have made their presence much stronger in recent days, and the apartment company has posted an all night security team at the building for the time being.

Again I appreciate everyones' thoughts, and I agree a discussion of situations would be a valuable resource!

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Very nice work. I would definitely use this as an opportunity to explain the benefits of firearm ownership as well as develop some interest in self-defense methods.

I live in a not great part of Greeley but fortunately a cop drives by my building once every 3 or 4 minutes on patrol.

Kudos to your landlords as well