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Anyone here have a piston AR?
How does it shoot compared to the normal DI AR's in your opinion, less/more recoil, less/more muzzle raise, easier/harder to control in rapid fire?
I have not had a chance to shoot one or seen one in action in real life yet but I am looking at getting another AR and am thinking it will be a piston.
You should post this in the "Wanted" section for better succes. It's under "Trading post"
I shot one and thought it was ok. More felt recoil though. And with a lot of shooting, I would bet the hand guard would heat up faster with the gasses being dumped in there instead of the upper/lower area.
I will pass on them for now.
I don't own one and haven't shot one, doesn't prevent me from adding my .02 though.
The consensus is that they have more felt recoil. But certainly not shooting gas, unburnt powder etc. directly into the action is a good idea.
For a soldier or someone else that needs absolute reliability in adverse conditions it is certainly something to look at.
For a guy like me that shoots for fun and competition I know that my properly built ARs will run fine with just a little bit of maintenance.
I've been running my piston system for a few months now & have had no problems. I bought it from Primary Weapon Systems (www.primaryweapons.com) and mounted it on a LMT Defender lower.
The piston system is a bit heavier than a comarible DI system, but not enough that it is bothersome. The rails are much more stout than other mfgs so I presume the additional weight comes from there.
The recoil is much LESS than a DI system. The action runs cooler after sustained fire, although the barrel does get hot still. Without the normal cycling feel from the bolt and buffer, I felt as if I could run the gun faster, similar to the difference between a DAO gun and a 1911.
Cleaning time is reduced greatly as the majority of the gas hits the piston and nothing else. The upper receiver is clean and my hours with dental picks and q-tips are gone!
As soon as I got the upper I ran 700rds through it without any oil, lube, or grease before it started to stick and not feed completely. Adding some TW-25B grease solved the problem immediately.
My only complaint is that parts can be difficult to find at a match or if used overseas, however prudent planning can solve this.
I would recommend a piston system (not a conversion kit) for anyone who is slightly considering it.
I don't know if this will help but I had a chance to run 3 mags through an H&K 416 at full auto. My limited experence was that it ran a lot smoother and was a lot more accurate than my issue M4. I think it had less recoil and that contributed to the full auto accuacy. It goes without saying I want one!! [AR15]
I've owned/still owned a few. By far the best was an LWRC 6.8 rifle. Just flawless in looks and function. Also have a Bushmaster factory piston gun...also works flawlessly. I've had a few conversion systems, too, and they've both been great though I haven't shot them much at all.
I worked the BM the hardest and actually abused the rifle by not lubing/cleaning it at all, ever, over maybe 3k to 5k rounds. Never failed and the majority of the shooting was done with Wolf or Silver Bear ammo. Actually, the only ammo other than Wolf or Sil Bear that I can really recall running through it was some 75gr TAP just to see if it'd work. It did.
I've seen no evidence of wear or "bolt carrier tipping" that some folks have experienced. Added weight is about the only drawback I can see...and having to modify certian handguards or rail systems to fit with the piston system installed.
Cleaning is a non-issue with piston guns in my experience. Wipe everything down and boresnake the bore. Lube. Done.
I can't comment on accuracy because I don't shoot for small groups at any particular distance. My gut tells me they're all very close, and in the case of the LWRC maybe more accurate, to what the DI guns will shoot.
I have a new conversion kit that I haven't tried yet that I'm anxious to try out made by made TNC or TWC or something like that. Looks to be of very good quality and I picked it up from a dealer at the Tanner show last Oct. He sold it to me for $245 out the door. I couldn't pass on that. Just haven't got around to installing it yet.
I'd recommend them (piston guns) if you don't mind paying the premium price.
I’ll be finding out here soon.....Quote:
Originally Posted by jim02
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...ead.php?t=1724
I've got a PWS conversion that is on a Saber Defense 16" upper, love it. I think if I were going after a new system or complete rifle it would be either the Ruger SR-556 or if I were willing to keep saving, a LWRC.
As others have noted the recoil impulse is different. I personally don't think it's heavier or any more tiring than a DI weapon. It's hard to describe accurately the difference. Either way, its something you'll notice if you're swapping between a DI and Piston gun in the same range trip or class, but not really anything you'll notice if you're only running the piston gun.
Look for a piston system that keeps most of the retaining pieces captured. The PWS has a small guide pin that I've spent some time finding again and some "I"m an idiot" moments making sure it's seated correctly during re-assembly. The LWRC, Ruger and Adams Arms systems seem to better capture all of the little pieces.
Still a fantastic improvement to the AR system, while I'm not trading out the other DI AR's I have, the PWS is by far my favorite.
Check out the article on page 12. It does make you think what is needed or wanted for your purpose.
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...GUNS/GUNS0310/
My reply from another DI vs. Piston discussion on another board:
As a frame of reference I have been hosting 2 to 7 tactical training classes a year, every year since 2000 or 2001. Out side of the classes I host I also take other training classes. I've been a full time Police Officer for 14 years, I've been a SWAT cop for 11 years, and I'm a Firearms Instructor for my agency, our Police Academy, SWAT Team, and SWAT Academy. Prior to that I was in the Marine Corps (Infantry / Security Forces).
In the early 60's when the M16 first came on line there were several important people that wanted to see the M16 fail. So troops were told that they didn't have to clean their guns, they used the wrong powder in the ammo (ie. they were suppose to use stick powder and they used ball powder), etc. By doing this the M16 got a reputation as being an unreliable platform.
In my opinion the reason that the direct impingement gas system (DI) has gotten such a bad reputation in recent years is because people go out an buy low end AR's or they try to build a AR from parts from various manufacturers. They end up with a gun that is unreliable and this feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable.
When I was in the USMC the main malfunctions were caused from shooting blanks and magazine related. I had seen a hand full of other problems, but they were far and few between.
In the training classes that I host and take on my own and from the AR15's that I see in training and qualification courses at work. Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. run well. While CMMG, DPMS, Olympic Arms, Bushmaster, Stag Arms, RRA and others have a high number of reliablity problems.
Piston guns. I have seen a lot of piston guns that have had problems. I have never seen a POF make it through an entire class without problems. About half the Sigs that I have seen have had problems. About 1/3 of the LWRC guns I have seen have had problems.
From my experience piston guns
-have a sharper recoil impulse
-they are heavier
-piston system guns are more expensive
-the different piston systems are new and haven't had the time to be as thouroughly tested as the DI gas system
-many of the piston system operate on a slightly different system
Piston systems on the AR15 is a fairly new concept (most within the last decade). The DI gas system in use on the AR15 has been in service for close to 60 years, this has given engineers time to work the bugs out of the DI system. Not the same can be said for the piston systems used on the AR platform.
In my opinion the piston system is not needed on the AR15 and it exists because guys buy lower end AR15's, many of these lower end AR15's are not reliable, and when a shoorter buys or builds an unreliable AR15 it feeds into the myth that the DI gas system is unreliable. DI gas system AR15's are not created equal. There are different levels of quality.
Pat Rogers has a DI gas system BCM upper that had 26,000 rounds through it before it was ever cleaned. Currently it has just shy of 29,000 rounds on it. Read this article for more info:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/b...pper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png
In short I see no need to buy a piston upper. Buy a QUALITY DI gas system AR15 and use quality ammo, quality magazine, lube it, and it will run without any issues.
Just my .02 cents based on my experience.