http://www.coloradoshooting.org/why_glock.htm
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glock or some other mfg of 9mm .this echo's what i have been saying for years.
it's shot placement vs. size of hole.
a man who practices with a .22 is far better then one who doesn't with a .45!!.
thank you.................
He nailed it at the end... shoot what you shoot best, carry what you shoot best and get the gun that fits YOU. 9mm is a good round. Low penitration when considering barrier objects such as car doors, walls, etc... good and bad depending on your outlook.
Will the 9mm kill, wound or flat out drop your target... uh yeah. Will 45 be more effective when placed side by side with the 9mm... yeah. But then again a 82mm mortor will kill a bunch of stuff in its impact area, much like it's big brother then 155mm arty shell.
We've all heard or read the stories of LEO or Mil guys having to dump 16+ rounds into a target to drop it when using 9mm... I personally don't recall those same type stories or rumor with the 45. Guess that is part of the hype, but the fact of the matter is that the 45 will stop someone more often than not even without a X ring shot. 9mm is more likely to require a few more rounds when outside the primary kill zones.
There is a whole lot to be said for 9's in general. Most of us who are both 9 and 45 fans are also huge fans of the 40 cal round, which I think has been neglected as a general use round.
Then again I subscribe to the theory that if your can't stop it in 16 rounds, you shouldn't be messing with it... don't see many 16 round .45's now do ya?
G20...still a glock
10mm baby...rocks like a 41 magnum, 15 rounds like a 9mm.
Why aren't these more popular?
You need big paws to grip the larger frame and you can't be recoil sensitive. Having carried a .357mag as a duty rig for years, I am not recoil shy in the .357mag or 10mm. Anybody who says that they are not .44mag. shy is lying; .44mag, yes recoil shy.
Second reason...expensive ammo to practice.
I have been shot by a 9mm, I won't carry one for protection. I recommend them to everyone who I don't like.
They don't work. I was not even shot in the kevlar. If I was shot by a 10mm, I wouldn't be here.
Now I am not talking about specialty rounds like the one's Colorado Springs PD uses...those will bust most 9mm slides....heck they even broke the PD's pistols until S&W fixed them with heavy springs. They are much closer to auto .357mag's in velocity and energy.
I'm digressing. Being able to shoot is much more important than bullet size. I remember an article I read in a combat defense course once, carry the largest caliber in the heaviest bullet you can handle accurately. For some it is a .22lr, for others it is a .44mag.
Don't just shoot at targets either, create stress shoots. Run a mile as fast as you can and try to shoot. This will duplicate your heart rate that has just been topped from adrenaline. These will best show you how you will shoot when you really need to.
What round does CSPD use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtr
I know without a doubt that they carry a 9mm......Last I knew their duty round was the Federal Hydra Shok
We also issue the Hydra Shok in 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, 10mm, and .357 mag
My first CCW purchase was a Springfield Armory Micro-Compact in .45 ACP.
Not so fun to shoot, and ammo is expensive.
I steer all my friends to 9mm for their first handgun purchase.
I've been carrying a Glock 34 (9mm) hiking / camping for the last couple of years. It's just now been supplanted by a revolver in .41 Magnum.
I had high-hopes to replaced the Springfield with a Kimber Tactical Pro II in 9mm, but it's heavier than I expected. I'll probably replace it eventually with a Colt Lightweight Super Commander.
Mike
CSPD uses a round made for them by Winchester.Quote:
Originally Posted by rtr
Brass cased, Black Talon, very high pressure like a +P+. Almost like sub gun ammo. The original Black Talon used nickel brass like Federal Hydra-Shoks. These rounds are waaay hotter than Hydra-Shok's. They actually kick.
When they first started using S&W's they were the 1st out of the 4th generation and they were cracking slides and frames. S&W told them to get bent and they wouldn't fix them. CSPD threatened lawsuit and publiction of the event and S&W fixed the weapons for these hot rounds and all subsiquent weapons bought for the department. This was in the earily/mid '90's when S&W was having quality problems.
On a similar note....
Denver PD authorizes Glocks. But they don't authorize the .40. Its .45, or 9mm, but no .40.
Oh and they de-authorized Kimbers........
.
I have yet to figure out what the craze with Kimber is. Same junk SA has. SA has the same Junk Kimber has.... :roll:
Kimber in the past were one of a kind fine pieces of equipment like Detonics or someones custom shop like Ed Brown.
When they ramped up for mass production they left the prices the same as when they hand made and fitted one gun at a time. Is this fair to consumers? You bet! If a consumer doen't get informed before a purchase and they pay for the name brand, they bought an overpriced big named product. This doesn't mean they got hosed by any means. It just means they could have bought the same quality with a different name for less money. Maybe they really wanted a Kimber instead of a Custom shop gun. Name recognition helps in the re-sale market.
There are only so many ways to make a 1911, and most have been done. So Kimber having the same stuff as SA is like saying that Bushmaster AR's are like RRA, Olympic and Colt. For example Olympic Arms is the only manufacturer to have available a broach cut barrel for guaranteed accuracy and not offer chrome lining.
Sure by outward appearances they are all the same but there are small differences especially in manufacturing processes; not necessarily in fit, funtion or appearance.
OK. So they are using probably non-lubrilox Ranger SXT +p+ 127gr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Osprey
This is no secret. Winchester doesn't make "special" bullets of for one small police department.
The Ranger SXT +p+ fired out of a 3 inch sub will make about 1200ft/sec. Out of a glock 34 about 1300ft/sec. Considering factory 357 mag 125gr is around 1250ft/sec, yep, the SXT +P+ is about like a 357 mag.
As far as it cracking slides and busting guns, everything I have in 9mm has lived through the SXT rounds without problems.
Now that said, I still like 10mm, especially with Double Tap ammo.
-Dana
I have my own theory on stopping power. However, my manifesto is still being written. Hopefully in a few weeks I will be done.
-Dana
Olin...Winchester does sell the original Black Talon to law enforcement agencies, by special order only. These are labeled Black Talon not SXT, and they are black bullets. I also was informed that OLIN does indeed make these rounds specifically to CSPD's specs. Winchester Ranger ammo doesn't list the SXT or use brass (non-Nickel) in +P loads...according to their law enforcement web site.
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...1tIEx1Z2VyIFA=
As far as being a small department...LOL...it is one of the largest (like top 30) in the country. There really aren't any 'burbs to limit Colorado Springs size. It's like 9th or 10th for largest city in the country in square milage. But it gets no respect because it's not Denver.
I too carry the 10mm, Hornady XTP 155grain. It's fast, 1200fps, low recoil, and was issued plenty to last me. My handload 180 grain are about the same speed with XTP's but recoil is a bit stout.
I heard a little blurb on TV that the Los Angeles sheriffs department $1.7 billion-dollar budget is larger than many small countries.
Mike
I heard a rumor that 1/3 of El Paso County's entire budget is given to the City of Colorado Springs for "community relations." I think Douglas Bruce stated it...District 2 County Commissioner.
EDIT: USMC03...I'm sorry...we've really hi-jacked your thread. I'll quit.
For 10mm, those actually sound pretty weak.
The hottest easily obtained factory load I have used is Winchester Silver tips. 175gr and right at 1200ft/sec from a G20.
Now kick it up a notch and use double tap.
I chrono'ed some 165 double tap (golden saber bullet) out of a G20 and they were right at 1400ft/sec.
-Dana
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_aos
And at one time LA County had the 7th largest helicopter air force in the world....
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Why no 40 caliber?Quote:
Originally Posted by bbadmin