I'll be heading to the range (DM's) on 1/16/11 (next Sunday) around 2 p.m. (ish), depending on weather/temps/$$$ situation, if anyone is interested.
[Beer]
Printable View
I'll be heading to the range (DM's) on 1/16/11 (next Sunday) around 2 p.m. (ish), depending on weather/temps/$$$ situation, if anyone is interested.
[Beer]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBear
already planned on it
see you there
I should be in. I'm excited :)
Hmmmm, prime opportunity to shoot the new (to me) AK, and finish sighting in the Aimpoint (ran out of sunlight last time), plus my week of vacation starts at exactly 1630 Friday evening. If our travel plans don't start before Sunday, I will try to join.
Do you have to be a member?
and I thought that was your concealed carry AKQuote:
Originally Posted by nogaroheli
[ROFL1]
At least you didn't think it was an LCP :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
Nope, it's a public range, I think it's $8 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by MB888
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB888
Nagorheli already answered but, no, it's a public range.
I'll be on the 200 yard (usually less busy except for the good ol' benchrest boys) and I'll bring the clay thrower if anyone is interested and some boom cans. I should have a legality answer (in writing) sometime Friday from Dep. Bowen. He's a CSPD rangemaster and also on the bomb squad, etc. He's also talking to inspector Maneri from teh ATF. Should clear everything up concerning Tannerite for all the naysayers who were having issues with it.
why bother with CSPD? dragonman's is way outside city limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBear
mel blasts cars with 50 cals out there.
tannerite shouldn't be a problem.
Rgr I know, just with the way the last tannerite thread went and some people saying they weren't sure they wanted to partake, I figured I'd just get some documentation from city and Feds to put the nay sayers at ease.
I have 30 lbs I'll be having fun with regardless if others partake. Just want people to be at ease and have fun, not worrying about gettin' thrown in jail, etc.
People do need to bring their own ammo though. I'm not rich, lol. I'll try to have 200 or so clays so if people want more, they'll have to bring 'em.
well according to the way the regs read Tannerite would be illegalQuote:
Originally Posted by Elhuero
and so far, .50 calibers aren't.
public/private range aside, illegal possession of an explosive isn't a charge I want on my record.
I understand Byte, hence me jumping through some hoops here to get you and others some solid answers in writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
If it does help ease your conscience, Mel does have an explosives liscence as well and he rigs those cars to blow with showman pyrotechniques/explosions, etc. The range is also private property even though he runs the business (which is also liscenced) off of it.
But in the grand scheme of things, I understand that "it doesn't matter if the product is still not kosher!" If you come you don't have to shoot 'em or even touch 'em. You can be on a different lane and disavow any knowledge of having safe fun! (messing with you brother)
[Beer]
Bottom line: Legal as long as it is not premixed or transported while mixed. No liscence needed for the manufactered amounts sold via the Tannerite website. They do express concerns and hesitancy about people using it that have no explosives knowledge/liscense, etc.
I have a written letter heading my way expressing the above.
Below are the emails. I'll begin with the initial email and then just post the replies as we hash things out. Some things and emails were edited out as they had no relevance to the original conversation. If you would like to check the originals for validity, I'll keep 'em for a while. Ok, on to the emails:
Original email:
Hello Randy, et al.,
First and foremost: Happy New Year! I hope and pray that all is well with you and yours! Now, on to business. I am trying to figure out the legality of using Tannerite Reactive Targets for personal use on established ranges. Several range masters have indicated that they would not have any problems letting me use the product as long as I am safe, it's legal, and all that jazz. While researching the product I've have come upon several inconsistencies and just want to make sure everything is legal before I proceed.
Here are the claims of Tannerite issued on their webpage: http://www.tannerite.com/frequent-qu...oding-targets/
- Tannerite is a binary explosive used for firearms practice.
- It is completely stable when subjected to less severe forces such as hammer blows or being dropped.
- It is exceptionally safer than black powder.
- It cannot be set off using flame or electricity.
- Designed for high powered rifle use only, it cannot be set off with rim fire or small caliber (slow moving) pistol cartridges.
- It is supplied as two powders (ammonium nitrate blend with zinc I think as the catalyst) which are combined to produce the explosive.
- It is patented and trade marked.
- Explosion consists of water vapor in a white "dust" cloud and loud boom.
- Since the two components are not explosive until mixed, they can be legally purchased without a license.
They claim that they would love to talk to any authorities and discuss it's legality, so: Tannerite's phone number if more information is needed: 541.744.1406
Here is where my questions lay:
- In Colorado law, even though written for liquid explosives, it does state that "binary" explosives are illegal.
Source: Explosive Regs from the CO Division of Oil and Public Safety.
- Explosive Materials: These include explosives, blasting agents, and detonators... Binary explosives, sold in two or more components, are considered an explosive material requiring a Division of Oil and Public safety explosives permit.
Question is: If this is the case, how do I obtain a Division of Oil and Public safety explosives permit? Seems kind of overkill for a simple reactive target.
- In Federal law there are restrictions on the civilian detonation of materials in excess of 4 oz. So that would apparently mean the detonation of .5 and 1lb "cans" of Tannerite could be construed as violations of current BATFE regulations.... insane....
Bottom line: Would it be okay to use this product or do I need to find out how to obtain permits and their costs, etc? Would it be possible to use on private land then since the owning of such product is not in question, it seems to be the actual detonation.
Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this. We appreciate everything y'all do for us in El Paso county. Take care and God Bless.
Sincerely,
Tim Baird
Responses:
Gentlemen, beyond the local considerations, I have reached out to Pete Marini with ATF. The individual rifle/pistol targets are not regulated. In excess of certain amounts of Tannerite binary explosive materials may require some kind of permit. He will get specifics and call me tomorrow.
J.D.
Lt. J.D. Ross, Training Director
El Paso County Sheriff's Office
__________________________________________________ ____________
Tim,
I talked with Corey and he reached to get answers to your questions. His respsonse is below. As Range Master for the EPSO / Public Safety Training Facility, I would be hesitant to allow this on our range based on the concerns expressed by The Regional Biomb Commander Chris Arseneau. Officer Compton, CSPD Range Master / Public Safety Traing Facility, concurs with this reservation. But, it seems it is not illegal to use.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions.
Randy
Deputy R.W. Bowen - Range Master
El Paso County Sheriff's Office
Public Safety Training Facility
5695 S. Academy Blvd.
(719) 502-2272 - Office
________________________________
Hey Randy,
In regards to your question about the Tannerite for the target shooting I talked to Chris Arseneau (CSPD/EPSO Regional Bomb Squad Commander) about some of the things that you were asking about. Essentially he said that it is not illegal to transport or ship in Colorado since it is sent in two separate containers. Now once the binary is mixed, it does become (and is considered) a high explosive so it would need to be used at that time. What he meant by this is that unless they have a permit to transport and store explosives, they can’t mix it and store it anywhere because it when then fall under state regulation.
Chris also mentioned that although it is considered by many to be a stable explosive, it can be shock sensitive and set off that way. I asked him straight out if he thought it was worth the risk and trouble to use it in target shooting as it is advertised on the website. He stated that although many people have made homemade versions of it and have tried to use it in shooting, he didn’t feel it was worth the potential risk involved in using and handling a high explosive with no training to do so.
If you have any questions for Chris, you can always call him at 444-7712.
Let me know if there’s anything else I can do…
Corey
__________________________________________________ ____________
J.D. has no further email. However, he did call me after speaking to Inspector Marini. Everything is legal as long as it's not premixed/stored/transported. It must be used on spot, etc. They advised against mixing anything larger than 1lb though technically, it wouldn't be illegal.
So again, bottom line: Tannerite it GTG. Just need to make sure DM is ok with it and the last 20 times I've been out there, Mel's never had a problem as long as it didn't disturb anyone, wasn't busy, etc and etc. I ask every time and get a GTG every time... doesn't hurt that his daughter and my wife hang out I guess... HAHA.
I sent everyone a thank you email and also told 'em I'd have no problem with taking take them to the range so they can experience it themselves or even giving their rangemaster or bomb techs a few samples.
Randy-
Your diligence and patience regarding the use of Tannerite is commendable and outstanding.[Beer] to you amigo!
Your "Sainthood" is pending.
Weather,money, work and time permitting I am going to try and head down.
Tim I will see you about 1:30ish then?
or will we meet up at the range?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
You can stop by my place or I can meet you directly at the range, no biggie either way. I won't be home from church till about noonish anyways. FIL has PCS'ed to Carson, so he may be coming along as well, just got in this past weekend. He has a few fun toys and a great DPMS Ar15. Remember Kyle? He'll be along as well as a few other town friends of mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
They are all a bunch of really good guys. I'm glad Maketa put together a great team.
Also recieved an alert from Agent Marini with the ATF. For full disclosure it's listed here as well. Nothing changes, it's still legal etc, they just want the scare the sheeple approach.
Interesting read though. And I must say the ATF boys have some balls testing the stuff with hydra-shock 12 ga slugs at a 5 foot standoff! Tanner says not to use the product less than 100 yards, lol!
I've always wanted to try the flash targets (like those big red dots you see on "Top Shot") but I did hear they were unstable depending on circumstances. I bet someone at teh store that blew up in teh flyer was drumming or cutting on one...
A couple Denver COAR15 members and I are planning to drive down to Dragon just for the sake of meeting the guys. I need to clarify what time, and if we need to bring anything aside from target, boomsticks and ammo.
Looking forward to this.
I really wish I could make this one.
When: 1/16/11Quote:
Originally Posted by MB888
Where: DM's in CoS, 200 yard range
Time: 14:00
Bring: Ammo, targets, boomsticks, eyes/ear pro, fun/easy going attitude, $8 (for Entrance fee)
There is an $8 entrance fee that I would like to pay for everyone, but I just can't afford it. If you need specific directions on how to get there from certain areas, let me know and I'll post 'em.
I have 30lbs of boomcans to get rid of. We will be safe using it, (not doubling doses, stacking, pitting, etc) and I would prefer if I was the only one to handle it to make sure things stay safe/legal/etc... Call me paranoid in big groups, but it's how it is, lol. Bring your own ammo. This is mainly clays and rifles, but they do have an adjacent pistol range if y'all want to do some of that after the festivities. If anyone can think of any "games" to play, such as:
Tannerite: I've always wanted to have two groups of shooters, 2-3 people in each group. A line of 5 targets - 3 (1/2lbers) at 100, and 2 (1lbers) at 200. Each shooter gets 2 shots. Timed for 10 seconds each person. First group to blow all targets gets a prize... I just don't have any prizes except braggin' rights, lol.
Clays: Groups in line, multiple throws, each person has one shot per clay. Other group can stand in to pick off but must wait for first groups shot. No intentional grounding of the target.
etc.
I'll bring the clay thrower if anyone is interested in that... I personally quite enjoy it. It's a crappy thrower and only throws singles, but it works.
I'll be on the 200 yard range, hopefully on the west side blocking off a few lanes. Should be a green, two door Honda Civic parked in the vicinity. Find me, introduce yourself, let's have fun. There will probably be about four or so of us already there (family/friends). I'll be the fat bald dude, in jeans and a button up with rolled sleeves, probably be wearing black gloves by that time. Name's Tim. Or just shout out "Hey Tim!" and I'll probably turn around, lol.
I'll call Mel around 11 a.m. to make sure they're open in case of any weather elements. I'll post here by noon whether it's a go or no-go. Forecasts say cloudy but no activity so we'll see. Dress appropiately.
Anything I'm missing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBear
Map Linky
Danke!Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
Looks like the weather is going to cooperate for your shoot. Have a great time and post some pics. [Beer]
I'll try to remember a camera. You're in teh Springs, come on out and have some fun too if you get a chance. I'm sure we'll be there for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by StagLefty
Kinda looks like myself and SideShowBob may trundle down there.
The more, the merrier.
BitteQuote:
Originally Posted by BigBearDanke!Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte Stryke
Ich glaube wir habe
I Believe we have a seat open in the carpool from North Denver side.
Contact myself or BPTactical for info
Eh chit, I may skate on down.
If you need help finding Tim...
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/attach...0&d=1288627088
I love that pic! HAHA. I think I did a heck of a job carving that pumkin!! I like the ears for the added effect. Would've thrown on a goatee but I couldn't imagine it coming out correctly, lol.
I'm always confused by that pic. Who's who ? [Beer]
Ouch!
Tim looks a little creepy in that photo, and, who is the guy that is going to stab him in the head? [ROFL1]Quote:
Originally Posted by StagLefty
Quote:
Originally Posted by StagLefty
Ha... ouch x2Quote:
Originally Posted by theGinsue
Yeah but it's a love ouch ya big lug [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBear
I hear ya, I hear ya.
I'm going to have you be the target... I mean, set up the targets on Sunday. heheheh
(kidding, honestly, come on out!)
I suppose if I hold the tannerite over my head it won't hurt at all huh [ROFL1]
Love to join you but it's church day for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StagLefty
Bah, I go to church too, usually out by noon. We'll be done before 5 (they close at 4:30, lol) so you'll still make it to night service! Anyways, see you around.
If you don't wimp out again.Quote:
Originally Posted by BPTactical
Signed:
The Trunk Monkey.