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Disregarding caliber specifics. Not the "9mm -vs- .45 ACP" discussion.
What you you suggest as a good self-defense (people) load, expressed as bullet-weight x velocity / power-factor / ft-lbs of energy?
Examples:
125gr x 1000fps = 125 PF = 277.5 fp/e
170gr x 900fps = 153 PF = 305.69 fp/e
200gr x 1000fps = 200 PF = 444.0 fp/e
230gr x 800fps = 184 PF = 326.78 fp/e
I'm kind of thinking anything around 300 fp/e would be fine.
What do you feel would make an ideal self-defense combination?
Mike
I'm a believer in Massad Ayoob teachings in self defense.
Largest caliber in the heaviest lead faced bullet you can handle in a given firearm under stress.
To some that is a .22lr to some that is a .500S&W.
My personal is a 200 grain at 1300ft/sec. More and I become recoil sensative. Less and I feel it's not enough from me.
Now we're talking ~750 ft/lbs of mechanical energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Osprey
Maybe for the outdoors, but isn't that a bit much for a typical urban encounter that takes place at "conversation" distance?
What about overpentration? Followup shots? Flash?
Mike
Wrong algorithm. There is no necessary correlation between terminal effects and momentum. Within the same bullet type/construction, it might be true, but it means nothing on its own.
A good JHP out of 9x19 or larger is good to go.
Worry less about load/caliber bullshit and more about mindset, tactics, and skill.
Yes, what I shoot is overkill. I admit it. I've been shot by a 9x19 and I'm still here. In fact it didn't even penetrate the leather jacket I was wearing. Speaking of leather jackets, you need to keep in mind everyone isn't always walking around in a t-shirt and if some one is wearing heavy clothing, it really slows down pistol bullets.
Remember shot placement, and do shooting drills until the target is no longer a threat. It's amazing how many people will shoot, get a hit and stop. Keep shooting until a threat no longer is a threat. To an untrained civilian defending themselves this usually means empty your weapon into the target. This also helps substantiate the fact that they were a threat and you were in fear for your life.
Having recieved and I am trained for CQB and defensive shooting I could not get away with emptying my gun. This is why my personal gun might be a little overkill.
Overpenetration: Colorado Law protects those who are in law enforcement from prosecution from discharging their firearm in the line of duty. The burdon of a miss or a pass through falls on the perpatrator because they caused the law enforcement officer to discharge their weapon.
Follow up shots:Like I said before, it's what you can handle. I have no problem shooting a 10mm or a .357 mag. Some do, and they need to choose something lighter. Some can handle something bigger. I can't.
Flash: Anyone who shoots in selfdefense is not worried about muzzle flash...your not a sniper. Muzzle flash at night can actually aid you in your target picture to help line up the sites if you don't have night sites.
I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith
I bought a lightweight .41 Magnum for hiking. The conventional "Internet wisdom" was that the .41 was the right minimum defensive cartridge for bear & lion.
I've also read of issues with crimp-jump on heavy .44 mag loads in lightweight revolvers.
So I figure if you've got to download .44 anyway, might as well go with a .41.
Now the question becomes, what's the "minimum" .41 load for outdoors?
And as long as I've got it, why not use it as a "car gun" when I'm not hiking?
So the next question, it's what's a minimum self-defense load in .41? I suspect even the lightest factory loads are more than I need.
Mike
[quote="michael_aos"]3" magnum slugs, or 308 or 3006 FMJ for large things that want to eat you, a 9x19 for bad people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith
And again. I agree. That's the correct answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith
But it seems like the whole PURPOSE of a handgun is for when a rifle isn't practical or available.
Honestly, I've never even SEEN anything camping or hiking to indicate bears or lions would be a problem.
Psychologically though, there's something reassuring about a large-caliber double-action revolver in the woods.
So if we say ~700 fp/e gets us to .357 / 10mm. And that's "not enough".
And we say the ~1200 fp/e of of .44 is too much.
We're probably looking at ~800+ fp/e minimum for .41. Any less, and you forfeit the advantage of .41.
Although perhaps the perceived recoil of a 180gr @ 1400fps is different than the perceived recoil of a 265gr @ 1150 fps?
Mike
I've read that when the .41 Magnum was first conceptualized, it was a 210gr @ 950 fps = 420 fp/e.
That reminds me of a .44 Special round.
Mike
I've found I really like the CCI Blazer 200gr GDHP .44 Special in my S&W Mountain Gun. I haven't run them over my chrono, but I'd expect ~850fps.
There's a Speer Gold Dot 210gr JHP in .41 Magnum, but the reviews suggest it's a LOT hotter than a .44 Special.
I bought a box of the Winchester 175gr Silvertip HP's in .41 Magnum but I haven't shot them yet.
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_aos
If they are on par with, or a little hotter than the ones I shoot out of the 10MM You'll be quite happy I think. :D
I think the appeal of 9mm are the factors of bullet weight, construction, velocity and capacity, combined to form a very "shootable" platform.
I expect factory .41 Magnum loads have me "covered" with regard to self-defense in the woods.
What I'm really after are the characteristics that comprise a good self-defense (people) load. I'd like to use that information to roll-my-own .41 load so this revolver could double as a "car gun".
Mike
Any thoughts on how these 2 compare?
Hornady 210gr XTP JHP ($12.99/100)
Speer Gold Dot 210gr JHP ($15.99/100)
I'm initially hoping to drive these around ~850fps.
Mike
I have tried the XTP's, in The 10MM, .45 Colt and .454 Casull, I have been very pleased with the result for all of them. I don't have any personal experiance with the Gold Dots, But I have relly heard or read anything negitive about them.
FYI, it seems lately I carry a Glock 34 w/124gr TAP in a thigh holster when camping. Especially at night.
That .41 Magnum really does carry great, but being on my belt makes layering a pain as the weather changes, or when donning a backpack with a waist-belt.
Mike
in my glock 32c I load my own, its a .357sig I use 7.6 grains of hodgdon hs-6 powder, 147 grain xtp hp's, for a velocity of around 1175 fps. as far as power factor, I dont know the math to get it, but I would not want to be on the recieving end of it :cool:
I get 450 fp/e.Quote:
Originally Posted by car-15
That reminds me though. I've read that the original blackpowder lever-action designs were based on bottleneck cartridges. Seems like .357 Sig would be pretty cool in a lever-gun.
Mike