I have been wondering what levels of readieness most home defenders are at.
What do you use for your primary weapon (ammo) and why?
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?
How often do you practice tactical skills?
Thanks
Greg
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I have been wondering what levels of readieness most home defenders are at.
What do you use for your primary weapon (ammo) and why?
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?
How often do you practice tactical skills?
Thanks
Greg
I can't answer for most, but I have a tactical carbine and handgun close at hand and others in the home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
Primary is a Oly K9 9mm AR-15 with a 32 round mag of Carbine +P+ 147 grain HP Gold dots....red dot site...why..100% reliable, plenty of ammo, and little chance of hitting a neighbor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
X-LEO....I had load of practice...it's like riding a bikeQuote:
Originally Posted by Mule
Never, but I do practice stress shooting to simulate the stress that you would be under in that sitaution. Stress can be running a mile right before you shoot and then only using moving targets....or having multiple targets and someone else is timing you for fast time as well as calling which target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
What does everone else do?
I've got a Mossberg 500 in the basement (where I spend most of my time when I'm at home) and a USP 9mm upstairs in my nightstand safe. I've got 00 buckshot in the shotgun and 124 gr gold dots in the USP. The way that my house is situated I shouldn't have to worry about hitting the neighbors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
Not much. If my dog starts barking at night I pull out the USP and check the house. It's rare that he does it.Quote:
What kind (if any) of home defense practice do you do?
Almost never. I need to start again.Quote:
How often do you practice tactical skills?
An 870 behind the front door and another behind the bedroom door, both loaded with 00 buck. A J-Frame in the nightstand loaded with 38 special.
I shoot IPSC, IDPA and 3-gun every weekend. You wont get better gun handling skills anywhere. Tactics, not really. Go to Gunsite or actual classes for that stuff.
Let me add one more thing.
Kids or other family members in the house?
My setup is:
XD-40 in the safe next to pillow, 165g Golden Saber, one clip w/ 12 rds
Tactical NEF 12ga pump w/ "00" buck.
My concern at night is; a daughter sleeping upstairs, second daughter and my mother in law in the basement. No worries of hitting neighbors.
I have my Glock 19 by the head of my bed, but it's just got WWB in it right now, and only 12 rds because that's all I had left after the last shoot. [wink] Besides, I'm not the only one living here (parents and dog) and I sleep like the dead anyway, so I would probably be the last one to know if there was a BG in the house.
I think I'll be pretty much screwed once I move out.
Brian
Naww it would take a nuclear warhead to wake me up thats why I have a dog. [wink]Quote:
Originally Posted by Asha'man
She barks and I am up with gun in hand. :mrgreen:
I have my safe about 3 feet from bed, door is unlocked when I am home. AR inside with two 30 rnd mags filled with Hornady TAP. On top of the safe is a pistol safe with keypad that has a Glock 22 with two 15 rnd mags of Federal.
Haven't trained nearly enough.
Have a GSD that is still a pup but hopefully she will become a nice addition to the home defense.
The dog barks sometimes at night, enough to make my folks get up and go downstairs to shut him up. I've never woken up at all. Once my sister's highschool friends came by to "kidnap" my sister at about 0630. Eight yelling highschoolers ran up the stairs and directly past my front door, engaged in much noise and commotion, and left the same way. I never even twitched.Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterCO
It's weird.
Brian
Primary night time would be my colt detective w/+p .38 special hollow points at my nightstand when i am home, its like clockwork, i leave, it goes in the safe, i come home, first thing i do is unlock and place on nightstand. Reason: my most reliable weapon + ease of use + decently powerful. Only downside is lack of capacity. Accuracy also sucks (probably me) but at 6ft or less i seriously doubt i would miss.
Or i have the mossberg 500 18" barrel w/6 buckshot loaded. OR if things are really bad then i can pull out the ar, but with surplus ammo fmj its a killer for the neighbors. It would be my last choice to fire indoors.
Training? I feel confident with my home clearing ability. There have been a couple times where i woke up to a noise and was convinced someone was in my house.
I think a .40 mid or full size glock w/flashlight and night sights would be ideal. If you cant see the sights/target thats not good.
I have also read this: "pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseb
I just find it easier and more pratical to grab, aim and fire a pistol in a seconds notice. But if time allowed theres no substitute in my mind for a 12 gauge w/buckshot.
I got a dog that barks at the sound of crickets, and a 9mm close by.
I have a ruger p-89 loaded with 124gr +p gold dots in the night stand. I also have the AR in the closet but it isnt loaded, I do have loaded mags for it (Q3131) but I would have to grab them and then the rifle so the AR would really only be used if I knew a threat was comming. But I believe the 25 rounds of gold dots will fend off any atack I will face personally. As for training, I have none. :cry: I can however shoot well, but I know that probably means little in a stressful situation.
Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.Quote:
pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"
It would be loud but I doubt it would be loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage.
Plus everybody knows with a pump shotgun go don't even have to shoot. Just rack the slide and the BGs go running. [wink]
That would be loud, but as one LEO pointed out;
"most criminals have either walked away from or had a friend walk away from a pistol hit, none have done it with a shotgun, it scares the hell out of them"
The permanent cavity and blood loss is what gets them (per FBI paper I read), pistols just don't always have what it takes. The FBI paper said 90% of pistol victims live.
Greg
Not sure I'd rather fire an AR or SKS in close quarters than a 12ga. You'd have the extra sound of the sonic boom from the bullet to deal with too. Plus, your body bypasses minor things like deafness with adrenaline in that kind of situation, so I highly doubt you'd even notice the noise if you were truly faced with a shooting situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapo
Brian
I get asked a lot by friends and co workers about what gun they should look to buy for home protection and without fail I ALWAYS recommend a 12ga pump. I tell them exactly what has been said here... the sound of the slide racking back is unmistakable in American culture and will stop just about anyone breaking into a house!
The reasons I don't like a shotgun for home defense:
You can not dirrect every pellet out of it. Sure at very close range they act like a single mass, but in my house there are open areas 60ft across.
Next, if you rack a pump (unmistakable by the way) and the perp is now afraid for their life, you are now NOT in jeopardy for your life and could possibly get crusified in court as the make my day law doesn't protect you anymore; at least that could be argued.
Lastly, I've used an AR in 9mm for years for house clearing, and trust it with my life. Those 32 rounds in a single mag help too. Mind you I don't trust a 9mm handgun with a single shot, but I don't ever plan to shoot someone with one shot. You shoot until the target no longer presents itself as a threat...which is incapacitation.
The following Officer's report would read like this,"Sir, why did you shoot the victim 32 times?" Response from shooter, "I'm the victim, he was in my house and every time a bullet hit him he would move so I would shoot again. I stopped at 32 bullets because my weapon was empty and he didn't move while I reloaded."
In all seriousness; shotguns are great for unskilled home defense, but with proper training there are better options.
A dead perp won't be telling anyone that you made him fear for his life and he tried to escape. If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.
I was being sarcastic. If anything rackingthe slide will just let the perp where you are and may direct fire in your direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by newracer
WRONGQuote:
Originally Posted by Artyboy
From 18-1-704 2(a)
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury
It's called homicide and wrongful death. If the bad guy is no longer a threat, the make my day law will no cover you guys; also just because someone is breaking a law does not give you a right to kill them...or attempt the same
CRS 18-1-704
Case Law Rulings:
When an initial aggressor withdraws from an encounter ......the initial victim continues the attack, the victim then becomes the aggressor and is no longer entitled to act in self-defense. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
Right to kill in self-defense is not limited to cases where assailant intends to commit a felony. Ritchey v. People, 23 Colo. 314, 47 P. 272 (1896).
I'm not trying to start a pi55ing match, but I just wanted people to know they can not attempt to kill someone just because they are in your house. Being in the house is illegal if you didn't invite them in--trespassing.
Finish quoting the entire law... while you are correct in your partial excerpt, there is MUCH more to it than you've provided , but only quoting part of the law as you have Osprey and a few pieces of case law related is not cool. Everyone should read and understand the ENTIRE law.
Really
This thread got me thinking...
How many of us have experienced a situation where we needed home defense weapons?
Then I looked up state crime stats for 2003 & 2004. http://cbi.state.co.us/dr/docs_reports.asp
In 2003 and 2004, adding up the numbers for homicide, rape, robbery, burglary & auto theft the average was a 1.3% chance that one could experience one of these.
(1299 offenses per 100,000 population)
I think there's more than a hundred of us. Which 1.3 of us got hit?
2C
Colorado Osprey that is the wrong law. That is in defense of a person outside of their home.
If you guys are talking about the Make My Day Law or home defense law. Here it is
18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.
Statute text
(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.
(4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
On another note those.
Colorado Osprey is correct according to the law you cant just start shooting because someone comes in your house. Read the law and post comments.
so if they turn and run you better not shoot them in the back. :)Quote:
... and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
the first part about another crime in addition to trespass is to protect the drunk passed out on your lawn. someone comes into my house uninvited it's a pretty safe bet that they are there to rob me at minimum.
If you are using that sound to intimidate a bad guy, to be honest, loudly chambering an AR would be pretty intimidating too, becuase it sure doesn't sound like a .22. I am not an experienced 3 gunner, so having a 30 rd mag is more comforting than having to pump a shot gun for every round.Quote:
... the sound of the slide racking back is unmistakable in American culture and will stop just about anyone breaking into a house
If they're in your house and you don't know who they are then it's definately reasonable to believe that they are there with the intent to break the law. They don't have to be breaking a law when you shoot them. Even if they don't intend to break the law you can still shoot them. If they're there to borrow a cup of sugar and you just happened to leave the front door unlocked then chances are they're going to announce their presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by The1andOnlyKC
That doesn't mean that I'm sitting here praying for someone to break into my house so I can shoot them. It just means that if someone breaks into my house I have no idea what they're doing there and I'm going to assume the worst to protect my family and me.
Seems like we may have hijacked the thread... sorry for that, but this issue needs constant discussion..
Section two is the relevant portion for this purposes of this discussion.
“Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.”
... They left this portion specifically vague so that a home defense shooting could not be twisted by local law enforcement and or DA's…. EVERY shooting is surrounded by differing circumstances.. That is such a wide area of definition that I don't think there has been a significant counter to many if any cases that are covered under that law.
Remember that there are other laws which apply to protection of property and self outside of the home and as such, can sometimes relate to how this specific law applies to the situation.
I'm not a lawyer, LEO or what not, but I am an intelligent (easy guys :P ) adult with at least a moderate reading comprehension level. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that there will be OBVIOUS exceptions to my understanding and the specific situational factors.
=======
Cheapo... my point really is that the sound of a shotgun is FAR more pronounced that that of a bolt on an AR in the minds of most folks. I'm not saying that any loud bolt cycling will garner the generally undivided attention of an intruder. Most have folks I've spoken with have an idea... read mental image.. of what a shotgun can and will do to the human body. Where as most folks, do not truly perceive pistols and rifles as being nearly as pronounced in their effects as a shotgun.
I say this referring to my personal experience with laymen and other people I've spoken with about firearms. .. Just had a laugh thinking about how much differently this would be if it were being had by a good number of Southerners I’ve met and worked with over the last few months [roll]
Right wrong or indifferent, I firmly believe that shotguns are generally more intimidating to the average person, especially when you only have the chambering sound to go by.
=======
Osprey.. Regarding using your 9mm carbine rather than a shotty... I'm happy to hear you've practiced and engaged in training that helps further your skills and confidence with your weapons. Not enough of us do so!!!
I personally believe that for close quarter’s engagements within confined space and having a desire to reduce secondary penetrations along with several other factors; a shotgun is a far more effective weapon. I believe that not just speaking on the physiological facets and implications of the weapon on intruders.
I'm not saying your personal choice as stated is wrong for your ability and location, as a matter of fact I believe it is indeed a good choice for you. If for no other reason than to trust that you know your skills and situation far better than I could.
Then again, I could be wrong on all of the above counts... it's happened once or twice before :)
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
No.Quote:
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
You can not shoot someone over property. In a car jacking, your life maybe at risk if the car jacker has a weapon, or there are mutiple car jackers, or any number of other situations. The key is, would a reasonable person see your life at risk in this particular situation? This would justify the use of lethal force.
Hoodyhoo21 wrote:
In the situation you stipulated you would not be within your rights.Quote:
Anybody know how this transfers to your car? I expect that if I was in my car and somebody tried to carjack me I would be allowed to use deadly force. What if I was in my house and I saw somebody trying to break into my car? If I confront them and they dont stop could I legally shoot:?:
You stated "in my house" and "I confront them". To confront them you have to leave your house, leaving your 'safe area'. Unless you have a specific reason to believe they are going to use the car to enter your house to attack you then you can not confront them, as I understand the current interpretations of law.
Nope. You escalated the situation by confronting the perp. Don't do dat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodyhoo21
Brian
yikes you guys are confused... what do you drive and where do you live? [roll]
Meaning.....?
Brian
You wouldn't want it and too far to walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadShot
The state courts have already visited many of these exact issues. In the Denver area shooting a few years back a man, responding to a call for help from a neighbor, shot the bad guy in the back nearly " a quarter block away" as he ran from the house. The jury found his defense under the "Make My Day" law was valid. The Appellate/Supreme Court upheld the ruling. The 17 year old, unarmed, bad guy was crippled from the waist down as a result from the gunshot. He failed in his attempt to sue the shooter since the "Make My Day" law has a provision that protects people from civil liability if they successfully defend themselves under this law.
The law was also used in a "Road Rage" incident a few years back by a retired Air Force Colonel that shot and killed an attacker while on the road. The court ruled that the law could be used as a defence because your car is an extension of your home for this purpose. :P
Juries that have made decisions in "Make My Day" cases thus far have found the law to cover much more than even lawmakers intended it to. The public at large are tired of being victims. In this state, if you attack someone, you better have your medical/life coverage up to date. Karl. :twisted:
Well my point is that if you guys aren't willing to defend yourselves and or property, I could use a new car [poke] .. just kidding guys.
You have rights where the defense of your person and property are concerned (as Karl pointed out) and not knowing those rights can and will make you a victim.
I really hope you guys will take the time to speak to someone more knowing that us here about these issues!!!
I like the way the thread has curves in it ....
I'm learning a lot and this still relates to the topic, loosely.
It's too bad the proposed bill on cars and hotel rooms got nuked. It would have been much clearer.
Most of us can rack a slide on a SG fairly quietly, so if I really want to shoot someone that doesn't know I'm there, I can. I keep my carry arm (XD-40) on the nightstand and my SG not much further away (pipe empty). My XD is always loaded, so they won't hear it either.....
One problem nobody has covered is eye sight at night. My eyes dry out at night (I sleep w/ my eyes open), so I might not be able to focus well enough to shoot the pistol accurately. I need the extra advantage the SG offers. Five "00" bucks and one slug have a better chance of hitting than the 22 golden sabres. Maybe the addrenaline rush will over come they dryness, I can't say.
As for the laws.
I would much rather explain to the investegating LEO why the guy is dead in my living room INSTEAD of bing the one in the bag. On the other hand;
I don't see a need to shoot someone on my property, unless they are waiving a gun around. My dad and I could have done that many times in the house/ranch we had years back.
My truck isn't worth me sitting in the can while my kids grow up. Posessions can be replaced. It sucks to think about, but that's just the way it needs to be. Relying on a jury to decide if I was the agressor isn't fun to think about.
One parting thought and thanks.
I like the way everyone can discuss views and not get crappy with each other. Good job people!!!!!!
Greg