battle rifle question

battle rifle question
ok so im in love with my garand but i think i need to find a more modern large cal rifle that fits my lanky self . i have an ak74 (way too small ,size of rifle) , still havin a hard time gettin into the ar platform (too much plastic for my taste ) , i keep thinkin about maybe an ar with a wood set up or an fal or g1/3 type rifle and well there is always the m1a (m14) .

i guess the real question is whats the best large ,cal hi-cap (at leats 20 rounds ) ,with the most common parts and ammo rifle that you can think of ?
im just tryin to step away from the c&r thing a little and not go broke in parts and ammo , thanks for your input

Some good deals can be found on the G3-type clones. Mags are cheap. Or, find a Saiga .308 for around $500.

Otherwise, an M1A. But now you're talking real money.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

Some good deals can be found on the G3-type clones. Mags are cheap. Or, find a Saiga .308 for around $500.

Otherwise, an M1A. But now you're talking real money.

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yeah i keep lookin at the g3 clones and it seems like for just a few bucks more i could have a fn fal .also i no experience with that type of rifle so i have questions (how the action , is it a pain to break down , ect)
dont know much about the saiga but it seems to be based on the ak receiver , and the m1a just like everyone else i want one but i just wonder about parts and mags for the m1a , are they a pain in the wallet ??

M1A all the way!! Made in the USA, parts are abundant- but not always cheap! I personally dislike the HK91- G3 series. I have owned and shot 2 HKs and 1 PTR over the years. Sold them all. Right now I have 3 M1As in various configs. Great rifles and All-American!!

The only plastic on my AR's are the Stock and Pistol Grip. Ohh and the Rail covers that cover the metal handguard.

M1A, parts are being produced more and more by aftermarket companies. And as such. Prices for said parts are getting cheaper. You don't have to have USGI authentic parts. Most parts are made to those specs anyway. The M1A is ergonomically better than any of the other battle rifles (I'm talking 30 cal). OK, OK, except the AR10. Just getting that one in before I get flamed.

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Originally Posted by rbeau30

The only plastic on my AR's are the Stock and Pistol Grip. Ohh and the Rail covers that cover the metal handguard.

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yeah its the stock i cant stand , i know its crazy but i like the feel and weight of wooden stocks .

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Originally Posted by alxone

yeah its the stock i cant stand , i know its crazy but i like the feel and weight of wooden stocks .

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http://www.precisionfirearms.com/19.html

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=393

H.

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Originally Posted by alxone

yeah its the stock i cant stand , i know its crazy but i like the feel and weight of wooden stocks .

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But the money you save in Mags, and ammo will more than make up for that.

5.56mm cost, for a good Price, $5.50-$7 for 20 rounds of brass cased stuff. 30.06 is at least $.50 per round (if you're lucky) I'm not sure what .308 cost but it isn't $.29 per round.

The AR is a Good weapon with cheap ammo and an overabundance of magazines as well.

I'm not much of a G3 fan, either. But the clone guns are reasonably priced. And the mags are stupid cheap.

The FAL or clones are easily the simplest to field strip.

The M1A is by far the best gun, IMO. I've owned several and I've never had to replace a part. I really don't think the parts issue should drive your decision...really not a big deal.

The M1A would be my first choice.

The Saiga, basically an AK on steroids, would be my second choice if I didn't want to break the bank.

I'd go without if it was between the G3 and the FAL. I don't care for either rifle.

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Originally Posted by Hoosier

http://www.precisionfirearms.com/19.html

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=393

H.

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the walnut looks good . ar stocks and stuff easy to change out , or do you need special tools to monkey on it . the only thing i have ever done to an ar is put an upper on a lower (2 pins ) . it seemed that i might need some funky wrenches for the stocks ?

I like the M1's but I am a Fal guy. I do not care for the G3/Cetme guns. One thing about a Fal is they come in 101 varieties. If you ever want to shoot a couple let me know.[Coffee]

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Originally Posted by jerrymrc

I like the M1's but I am a Fal guy. I do not care for the G3/Cetme guns. One thing about a Fal is they come in 101 varieties. If you ever want to shoot a couple let me know.[Coffee]

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you bet i do , ill hit you soon on that one . ill let use up some ammo in garand in trade [Tooth]

Also with wood you have to worry about the elements at least with polymer you can focus on the metal in adverse conditions.

As much as I love Linseed Oil and Tung oil smells, I'd rather not worry about the wood getting damaged. Plus for the price of one of those wood sets you could get a UBR which is a fantastic (and heavy) stock.

I would love an MIA myself but they are pricy, and I don't like paying $20 for good mags. That and i'm not used to the ergonomics of the M1A either.

With many AR parts they are made in the USA and will have most often really good warranties i.e. CMMG.

SAI M1As have good warranties, but again are pricey.

I think Most FALs are imports so you may not get CS with them. Someone clarify this for me though.

Well if you go with the original manufacturer of an of the guns, the M1 would be your least expensive way to go. A real Hk 91 or FN FAL is gona cost you some money with the FAL being the most expensive of the group. If you don't have the cash to drop on the real deal, go with the FAL knock offs, they seem to be more reliable. For a battle rifle though, I am gona say the Hk 91 without a doubt, my 20 plus year old rifle is still driving em in consistently without any problems. [Beer]

Buy a 6.8 Noveske a troy battle axe stock ( I think thats the aluminum one), and metal trigger guard, that just leaves a plastic grip, and I am sure you could get a non-plastic grip.

G3 Pattern rifle.
Simplicity at its finest(next to an AK). Good accuracy out of a battle rifle.
Recoil operated so it will digest any ammo.
Cheap mags.
Easy strip and clean.

Look at any video of conflicts in Africa.
Either a rust orange AK or G3 still rattling rounds downrange.
Don't scoff at a QUALITY G3 clone like a PTR, I have owned a true 91 and I think the fit a finish on the PTR is every bit as good if not better than the real McCoy.

Not knocking the FAL or M1A, both great weapons in their own right.

It'll be very tough to beat that M1 Garand that you already have. Enjoy it!!

If I had to choose, I would say an M1A because of all of the tacti-cool stuff you can accessorize them with nowadays.
(troy and VLTOR to name a couple)

For something that wont break the bank, and that you can still have a ton of fun with, I would look into PTR-91's, or an Imbel FAL.
Both can be had for around a grand, and they are very fun to shoot.
mags and ammo are cheap from a .308 battle rifle standpoint.

hope this helps,
Kenny

You know you want one...

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...t/DSCF1893.jpg

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40366

If you are tight on cash I'll work with you as much as I can.

For me, the G3 has the most horendous ergonomics, kicks like a Missouri mule, destroys brass for reloading, and is the least accurate of the "big 3" battle rifles.

Ergonomics for the FAL or the M1A are very different, but for me they are equally comfortable. Of course, the M1A takes the prize for accuracy of all three. That said, if you want to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the M1A, it costs a lot more money, and has to be tweeked every year or so, depending upon your shooting.

Have handled a couple of different .308 AR's, and it's just another AR. That is to say, ergonomic, relatively light weight, inherently accurate, and modular as hell.

Now, if you can take Jerry up on his offer to shoot a few of his FAL's, go for it. Jerry is a stand up guy who will do whatever he can to help you out. Just watch out for the dogs, they get under feet![LOL]

I completely concur with Birddog, as that is exactly my experience with the 3 G3-types that I have owned, 2 HKs and 1 PTR. I didn't learn the 1st 2 times because the platform is just too cool.

I'm a big M14 / M1A proponent, but in all fairness to you looking to spend some scratch on a nice rifle, I should point out its weak link... the gas system.

M1A's like a very specific burn rate on powders. Most factory loads use a fairly slow burning powder to achieve max speeds in the .308. These slower, "late blooming" powders may have less pressure in the chamber, but they have more at the gas port which tends to batter the snot out of your operating rod... potentially damaging it.

Start on page 10 here. It explains it a lot better than I can.

Two solutions - some sell an aftermarket adjustable plug which will bleed off gases, or just find something designed for this (and the M1 Garand) gas system. American Eagle makes a round designed specifically for the M1A, or if you reload, just use IMR 4895 or H 4895 (little faster burning). I decided I had to ice skate uphill and use other slower powders like 4320 and Varget because I had a bunch lying around... they can work, but only on the very low end. I eventually decided to use what all the old timers used, and life became a lot more simple. [Tooth]

Bottom line - as long as you're aware of it, it's really not much of a downside. Just understand that you'll never get published speeds out of your M1A (most manufacturers publish bolt gun numbers). The good news is the .308 has guts to spare, has decent accuracy in the base models (and gets better from there), and is really soft shooting for a .308.

I still get a tad over 2,550 fps from my 168 grain SMK load from my Springfield Loaded model I just posted a pic of, and can keep it close to 1.5 MOA all day long.

I hope this helps.

I guess I am the oddball here. Yes the ergonomics on the G3 are typical German which to most folks suck. As far as recoil goes I put a buffer in it and it tamed it down a touch. One thing that I really do like is the fact that similar to an AR, the barrel, bolt and buttstock are all on the same plane. This keeps muzzle rise in rapid fire more manageable. To me this is a weak link on a FAL, the recoil spring on a standard model takes a dive downward in the buttstock. This creates a natural fulcrum at the pistol grip and the rifle tends to "pivot". That was its downfall in FA, the muzzle rose so badly that it was virtually uncontrollable.
Reliability and cheap mags are what clinch it for me on the G3.
Accuracy? One of the most accurate semi auto 308 rifles is based on the G3-the PSG1. Clean up the trigger and you can get good accuracy. I and my son have clanged steel silhouettes with irons at 525 yards consistently. No, we weren't driving tacks with it but then again that is not what the rifle is built for.
IMHO for sheer accuracy you cannot beat a properly accurized M1A. Accurate thousand yard shots are quite doable if the shooter does his job but the rifle needs a good touch of work first.

Not hardly BPT. I'm also a member on the M14 forum, although I'm not on there much anymore.... hmmm. Got into this discussion on that forum and was generally rousted as a turd because I dared insult the great HK91! Again I have owned 3, just not smart enough to learn the 1st time. They are a really cool rifle, they just aren't for me behind the trigger.

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Originally Posted by Birddog1911

For me, the G3 has the most horendous ergonomics, kicks like a Missouri mule, destroys brass for reloading, and is the least accurate of the "big 3" battle rifles.

Ergonomics for the FAL or the M1A are very different, but for me they are equally comfortable. Of course, the M1A takes the prize for accuracy of all three. That said, if you want to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of the M1A, it costs a lot more money, and has to be tweeked every year or so, depending upon your shooting.

Have handled a couple of different .308 AR's, and it's just another AR. That is to say, ergonomic, relatively light weight, inherently accurate, and modular as hell.

Now, if you can take Jerry up on his offer to shoot a few of his FAL's, go for it. Jerry is a stand up guy who will do whatever he can to help you out. Just watch out for the dogs, they get under feet![LOL]

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You funny guy. A couple more points. I do love the M1 and if you want to buy one rifle in .308 that can be made accurate then the M1 is for you.

Myself having qualified with the Fal in 81 and then got to carry another in 90 started building them in the late 90's. A few tibits about the Fal.

101 ways to build one.
Some shoot and some do not.
Buying a DSA means nothing as to the accuracy (see above)
You can spend all the money in the world on one and it will not shoot better. (see above)
There are some things that can help one but do not expect miracles.
barrel condition Vs shot groups in a fal mean little (see above)
When you get one that shoots do not mess with it.
Fal carbines. we now have the short gas system and 18" is preferred but long ago the joke was " If ya want a Fal carbine buy an SKS" If one looks at how the Fal works this is a valid argument.

Back in the day we just built them until one shot good. Understand that Fal's could be built for $300 in the 89-92 years.

I have built at least 30 and fixed many more. I also have what is considered to be the lightest one in the world at 5.75lbs iron sights that I built.

I will say that any Fal you are looking at if it is used that you need to be able to shoot it first at a range to verify that it is a shooter. The last thing I would wish is for someone to buy a shotgun shooter.

But then again I know nothing about them. [Coffee]

Here's my take on battle rifles:

FAL: Never had any luck with them. It's just been that...bad luck. Every one I fired, from Century to DSA (Never a real FN) had issues. One even liked to pop open after every round. I'm sure they're great rifles and I'll own one eventually, but for now I have other things in mind.

HK-91/G3: They are great rifles. I've had two HK-91's (factory HK) and both were extremely accurate, dead stone reliable, and mags are dirt cheap. That said, clones are hit or miss (even PTR's), they are a bitch to build/repair, they kick like a SOB without an expensive 2-stage buffer, and they do destroy brass (not an issue if you're just shooting surplus). Egro's suck as well and while you can get used to them, they'll never be as fast as some other rifles.

M1A: If you're a Garand fan you're already familiar with the manual of arms. Just know thier limitations. They're great accurate rifles. They're pretty reliable and if you leave them in stock form they're great. Once you start adding things like Sage/Troy chassis, scopes, bipods...they become heavy dogs. You also have to watch if you reload. Soft primers can lead to OOB kabooms and hot loads bend op rods. New M1A's don't have USGI parts and the newer cast parts can be of poor quality. Most people replace the new parts with USGI parts. That can be pretty expensive, so look for a "preban" since they were built with USGI parts. Good mags are pricey too!

AR-10: Don't be afraid of the AR platform. They're great. If you're looking into one, get one that uses the SR-25/PMAG mags. AR-10 mags are expensive and older ones don't work great. You can do anything with an AR. They're accurate, reliable if done right, and versatile. Built as a precision rifle, you can easily get sub-moa with a good barrel. You can build/buy one with a 16" barrel and run it as a big AR-15. If you're leary of DI gas guns check out POF's piston guns as well as the LWRC REPR. The best deal going right now is the LMT MWS. It's a quick change barrel 7.62 AR. They're quality and even Knights has said that 80% of the parts come off of the same mfg line as their rifles. Definitely look into the MWS!

Other Options: The Keltec RFB seems promising. They're accurate and the only issues I've seen so far is chrome flaking on the bolt. They use FAL mags which are still somewhat cheap and easy to find. The bullpup nature allows for a really short package. It's still new though. There's the Saiga if you're an AK fan, but since hi-cap mags are expensive and rare (factory mags that is), and I'm not a fan of the aftermarket mags, I'm not sold on them. The SCAR-17S is proven and they're pretty accurate as well. If you can get past the quirks of the reciprocating bolt handle and you can live with one mag until they become more readily available, they're a great option. I belive they're the lightest battle rifles out there right now, weighing in at right at 8lbs empty. The folder also makes them very maneuverable and good for hiking.

Hope this helps!

ETA: I'm running a SR-25 EMC. They're pricey but great rifles...again...don't be afraid of the AR's and look into the LMT MWS if you don't want to spend a crapload on a rifle.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/...6/DSCN0222.jpg

Sold this to buy that ^^^^^^^^^^
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/...6/100_8070.jpg

You say there are to many plastic parts for your taste in an AR15...the mulitary has felt it just dandy for over 40 years...something to keep in mind if your concerned with cheap to moderatly priced parts.

I have never run into issues with the "plastic" parts not standing up to hard use and some abuse. Id recommend the AR platform first and foremost if availability of parts and price of spare parts is a concern.

If it still is just not your thing....go with a PTR91 or CETME (with some aftermarket parts installation and minor gunsmithing to make it run like a champ) or even the venerable AK47 in 7.62x39.

This is just my humble opinion and what Id do if I was choosing a more modern battle rifle for zombie invasions.

Good luck and enjoy your search!!!

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Originally Posted by trlcavscout

Buy a 6.8 Noveske a troy battle axe stock ( I think thats the aluminum one), and metal trigger guard, that just leaves a plastic grip, and I am sure you could get a non-plastic grip.

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I think his whole idea is to stay on the cheaper end of the spectrum. Dont get me wrong the 6.8 is a badass round and fun as hell to shoot,but I got out of the round because it hurt the wallet at $1.05 a round even though I bought factory ammo at great prices from little known online sources. I dont reload so that wasnt an option.

M1A all the way, especially since you like the Garand. M1A's are beautiful guns and shoot great.

I haven't shot a FAL yet, I hope too. I like the G3, didn't think the recoil was significant, maybe the G3 fits me different than other folks.

I guess I just fail to understand the common statements that the HK91, CETME, and PTR will destroy the brass. There are some flutes (indentations) on the shoulder but I have reloaded that brass numerous times without any issues at all. Yes, when the case is ejected, there may be a rather seemingly serious crease on the body of that empty case but that is why most of us have installed/used a port buffer to reduce or eliminate that crease.
I wonder if alxone is looking for a "battle rifle" or a high powered rifle with extreme accuracy capability??
alex, you have an "almost" perfect battle rifle already. Just stick with that Garand and you will be more than happy with it. This is just MY unsolicited and worthless opinion of course.

I have em all, ran em all in our local club 3 gun events to test em out. My choice was the fal, with the L1A1 mag release. My G3 clone gave me a black eye because of the stock hump and improper mount. The M1a suffered from reload time. While the fal and the M1a have the same type of reload from how you insert the mag, the G3 is more like the ar.

Overall, look at dtechsuperstore and get an ar15 in a different caliber. 6x45 is a great caliber, 25-223 has some promise also. When compared to the battle rifles, weigh makes a huge difference. Give me an ar10 over the 3 above mentioned guns anytime! You just can't compete with the reload time, weight, and the accuracy. Find a gas piston ar10, and you're DONE!!!

The fn SCAR has proprietary mags, watch out for that one from a cost perspective...

I say the Garand is your best bet as a battle rifle if you find yourself a good source of M2 ball or an adjustable gas plug. I was just reading about the military trials for the AR over the M1a and I think the quote was that the M1a "some what inferior" to the older M1. An en-block reload can get mighty quick with work.

8 rounds of 30-06 is still a lot of power, and if you are looking for something different, there are options.

of the choices listed I would lean M1a, but be careful, older is better with these rifles, and most of the new "made in America" rifles are built out of parts from Asia and suffer from inferior building techniques. And the new Springfield triggers are really light, like scary light sometimes. Odd to learn about controlling an M14 in full auto watching your buddy bump firing one by accident.

I do love my M1. And it can throw a lotta hate downrange towards a well-deserving recipient. And CMP still has lots of Greek ammo. Pretty cheap, too. If I remember correctly the price is about $95 + shipping for 196 rounds loaded in clips and bandos.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

I do love my M1. And it can throw a lotta hate downrange towards a well-deserving recipient. And CMP still has lots of Greek ammo. Pretty cheap, too. If I remember correctly the price is about $95 + shipping for 196 rounds loaded in clips and bandos.

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Yup, I shot mine yesterday. There was a guy at the range who hadn't shot one so I let him run an en bloc through mine. He had this big ol' smile on his face afterward and kept saying 'thanks'. Ain't nothin' like a Garand.[Beer]

Agreed!
Old school cool! Something about the wood and metal that just has soul!

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Originally Posted by BlasterBob

I guess I just fail to understand the common statements that the HK91, CETME, and PTR will destroy the brass. There are some flutes (indentations) on the shoulder but I have reloaded that brass numerous times without any issues at all. Yes, when the case is ejected, there may be a rather seemingly serious crease on the body of that empty case but that is why most of us have installed/used a port buffer to reduce or eliminate that crease.
I wonder if alxone is looking for a "battle rifle" or a high powered rifle with extreme accuracy capability??
alex, you have an "almost" perfect battle rifle already. Just stick with that Garand and you will be more than happy with it. This is just MY unsolicited and worthless opinion of course.

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Both of my HK's had healthy ejection and liked to put a dent in brass so bad it decreased case capacity.

I've been thinking about a new Battle Rifle too. I kinda like plastic on firearms so I have been looking at the SCAR 17 and the LMT MWS. I think I am leaning towards the LMT...

I have a DSA FAL but the OP wouldn't like it, as it has plastic stock, grip and handguards.... and no wood at all!! [Shock]

DSA FAL 16" Tactical (short gas system) carbine
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/...21e7bbcd_b.jpg

Cameron

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Originally Posted by Cameron

I have a DSA FAL but the OP wouldn't like it, as it has plastic stock, grip and handguards.... and no wood at all!! [Shock]

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what do you mean no wood that tree is pretty big and where is this dsa fal you speak of ???
im just kidding that is pretty damned cool and evil without being a black rifle[Muaha] , just not my style .
bp said it best "Something about the wood and metal that just has soul! "

went and shot the m1 today and with every trigger pull i like it more , but on the other end after a while all i hear it a cash register boom . i do love the 30.06 but i like to shoot more (although sometimes i think its just to make noise [Tooth]) and the 308 seems to be way cheaper .
i would like to invest (its gonna take a little time) in one of the three , but id also like to shoot all three first .
thanks for all the input