Printable View
With the mother in law in town we headed up for a day of wasting money at Cripple Creek ... we go about once a year (when she's in town).
This time almost every casino had some sort of mealy mouthed half ass "no firearms/weapons" sign by several of their entrances.
No, they don't carry legal weight so I ignored them and packed into pretty much every last one today, but these signs weren't there last year so what's the deal?
How do they not carry legal weight? It's private property, if they say no firearms allowed, wouldn't be illegal to enter with one?
Watch out brother, private property+don't we have a law that you can't carry in a bar? Just asking.
Bars: no law. Private property: You are trespassing if you enter with a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by flan7211
If you're gonna pack, you better know the laws (and the consequences of violation of said laws).
I think you might have some research to do.
Just sayin'.
Complain about the signs until they bring them down. That's what I try to do.
http://www.cripplecreekweather.com/n...fter-shooting/Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundfolge
http://www.cripplecreekweather.com/n...bbery-suspect/
I used to deliver liquor/wine/beer there once a week for one of the largest national distributors for close to a year. Always left the box doors unlocked and picked up plenty of cod cash. Never had an issue. You afraid of wild donkey attacks or something?[Tooth]
18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.
(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except as specifically limited in this section. A permit does not authorize the permittee to use a handgun in a manner that would violate a provision of state law. A local government does not have authority to adopt or enforce an ordinance or resolution that would conflict with any provision of this part 2.
(b) A peace officer may temporarily disarm a permittee, incident to a lawful stop of the permittee. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the permittee prior to discharging the permittee from the scene.
(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school; except that:
(a) A permittee may have a handgun on the real property of the public school so long as the handgun remains in his or her vehicle and, if the permittee is not in the vehicle, the handgun is in a compartment within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked;
(b) A permittee who is employed or retained by contract by a school district as a school security officer may carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvement erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school while the permittee is on duty;
(c) A permittee may carry a concealed handgun on undeveloped real property owned by a school district that is used for hunting or other shooting sports.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
I can't find anything about a building just have signs posted yet, so he might be right about them having no weight. Any LEO's here, or dare I say, laywers.....dut dut daaahhhhhh
Just signs = No weight unless they directly & personally ask you to leave while you are carrying. At this point, failure to leave consitutes tresspassing.
No, if they discover I'm carrying and ask me to leave and I refuse THEN I'm trespassing. Just posting a sign isn't enough since there isn't a legal standard for the signs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperiorDG
My understanding was that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundfolge
It was probably the casinos lawyers. Casinos usually have pretty deep pockets. Don't be surprised if they have infrared cameras that can see your weapon through your clothes. Sorta like the old controversy of some Sony video cameras with night vision capability allowing you to see underneath peoples clothes. Casinos have some pretty good technology to keep them from being cheated.
I bet the lawyers for the casinos advised them to put up signs. Law is gonna do you alot of good when you are shot to death walking out the casino with your winnings being stolen. I go to Cripple Creek a few times a year for the $7.77 prime rib. If you gamble, I want to thank you for subsidizing my meals...
having worked two years as an armed security officer for a casino in Las Vegas NV, they don't have anything like infared cameras, lol. Casinos couldn't give a rat's ass if they are robbed or not. We had 4 million in cash in our cage at all times (nevada law states the casino must have enough cash on hand to cover the value of all the chips in play on the floor) .... we pulled in 15 million (aprox) a week off of slots ALONE, they don't give a shit about the 4 mill in the cage. We had two shootings inside the casino during my two years there, several more outside the building, on both of the shootings inside, we had the suspect's face clear as day, and would not release the footage to the police. The cameras are there to prevent lawsuits, and to comply with state taxation laws, the only two ways to get into those deep pockets. ;) ... the illusion of security.
Infared[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL1]
Boy been watching to many CSI shows...
I dunno, guys. As a cop, if I went to a location that had clearly posted "No Trespassing" signs, and an unaffiliated party was within those bounds, and could not have entered legitimately without passing a sign, I would have no trouble issuing a trespassing citation to the party if the business owner asked me to.
I would view it as similar if they had any sign putting a restriction on your activities within their private property. If you were in violation, I wouldn't have a problem writing the ticket then, either. No warning in the form of a request to leave would be needed, IMO. The warning was the sign, if you had to pass it to enter the building.
Before I became a cop and had to rely on my CCW, I just chose not to patronize businesses that wouldn't allow firearms inside. I realize this isn't always an option (mother-in-law trumps many desires!) but that would be my advice if it's an important issue to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfuego
In Texas, if the signs meet certain specifications ie. regulation size, font size, etc, those signs carry weight. That is NOT the law here. Signs don't mean anything here.
Trespassing is against the law in and of itself. Carrying a weapon is not. Private property owners wishes should be respected, but they are NOT law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Fowler
Its not a federal building or school and doesn't have any screening equipment in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by lead_magnet
I would say your GTG.
This is the unequivocal answer. IF YOU ARE ASKED TO LEAVE AND DONT< You are trespassing then and can be issued a citation etc from Law Enforcement.Quote:
Originally Posted by theGinsue
In Colorado, that is.
in nevada the law stated that if it was clearly marked at EVERY entrance it was illegal, I don't see anything like that in the CRS. To me the law is the law, the law doesn't mention it, so its not against the law. It would be really easy for somone to say "I didn't see the sign, I was too busy looking at all sparkly lights", or to honestly not see the sign. I see where it's a grey area, but I'm no lawer, or a cop, I just quoted the law.
remember, its called concealed for a reason. don't make a big deal of it and nobody will know any different.
^THIS.Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper7
Its called concealed carry for a reason. Be comfortable with yourself and your setup (i.e. don't be adjusting it and going out of your way to cover the part of your body you have it on... I can spot these guys in a heartbeat) and the ONLY time ANYONE should know its there is if you find yourself in a situation in which you have to use it, in which case a trespassing violation will be the least of your worries.
Does the sign hold weight under the law? I don't care. If it doesn't, its not something to worry about, if it does then I'd rather risk a trespassing ticket + fine than the other option, and in either case the above applies so it shouldn't be an issue at all.
And you can unequivocally identify every "unaffiliated" person?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Fowler
that's the crux of the issue, without mandatory signage regulations, there is no way to guarantee that everyone would see the sign. Colorado has no such regulations and as such the signs are meaningless. Otherwise businesses could post little bitty no CCW signs at 6pt type on the bottom edge of the inside of the door and then get people arrested? I think not.Quote:
and could not have entered legitimately without passing a sign,
Its the "business owner asked me to" part that is important. I also doubt that you would waste your time on patrol ticketing people inside of businesses when there was no call made by the business owner.Quote:
I would have no trouble issuing a trespassing citation to the party if the business owner asked me to.
So if I walk into the 7-11 barefoot or run one of those little stop signs in front of the Walmart, its my understanding that Law Enforcement has no jurisdiction to ticket me ... so why would "no guns" signs be any different?Quote:
I would view it as similar if they had any sign putting a restriction on your activities within their private property. If you were in violation, I wouldn't have a problem writing the ticket then, either. No warning in the form of a request to leave would be needed, IMO. The warning was the sign, if you had to pass it to enter the building.
In general thats what I do (if nothing else I don't wanna give anti gun idiots my money) ... but like you said MIL trumps many desires.Quote:
Before I became a cop and had to rely on my CCW, I just chose not to patronize businesses that wouldn't allow firearms inside. I realize this isn't always an option (mother-in-law trumps many desires!) but that would be my advice if it's an important issue to you.
At any rate, unlike Texas, Kansas and other states with signage laws, I live by the "concealed means concealed" mantra.
To be honest I seriously doubt that most of the casinos actually care about licensed CCW ... but like most people they think putting a little sign up will prevent criminals from engaging in criminal activity (the signs were probably mandated by some desk jockey back in Vegas, or wherever the casino companies are based).
great discussion. Like a masters course on carry. Too bad there is no real consensus on it.
I do agree if you are concealed and not acting like some sort of noob about it; no one should ever even know you are carrying at all. Then there shouldn't be any issues.
We have a cabin up near CC... I carry every time I go to 'town'...
What sign?
[Flower]
Oh, I guess it is about that time for this thread again. It's been what, a month?
Find what the guy named after a knife said, he's correct.
I think you misunderstood me.
What I'm saying is this. Let's say King Soopers up here had a sign at the front doors saying, "No firearms allowed in store" The sign was posted not 4' X 3' or something, but a placard at the two entrance doors - maybe 6" X 6". Any customer entering through a reasonable entrance would thus have to walk by it. If it is in good repair and legible, I would consider it valid.
Let's say that the manager called in because somebody appealed to be carrying a concealed weapon. We will assume he is a licensed CCW who just makes a poor wardrobe choice and displays his weapon accidentally, and the manager is an anti-gun worrier. I meet the gentleman outside, as he is leaving. There are no mishaps, and he presents me with his CCW.
IF (here is the if) the manager wanted me to write him for trespassing, because he walked past a sign saying, "No firearms allowed in store" and during the duration of his visit he was in violation of the property owner's wishes I would absolutely write him a ticket. Is it really "fair"? No, but he walked past a legible sign.
If the manager just wanted me to safely address the man, and ask him not to carry his firearm back into the store, I would do that as well.
It all comes down to what the private property owner wants and what is reasonable. In this case, I might assume the CCW holder will fight the ticket and I may photograph the signs to show that they were, indeed posted and visible at the time of the incident, and submit those into evidence. Your example of 6pt font is a little ridiculous - that clearly wouldn't be legible. I'm saying that if there was a legible sign posted at every entrance, and there was a call for service, and a building manager asked me to cite the person (meaning they would be listed as the trespassing victim and thus may be asked to testify), I would do it.
I would hate it, but I would do it. I think the onus is on us as responsible gun owners to try to act in accordance with property owners' wishes so we don't give people any more reason to hate us.
We need a reality show called extreme CCW make over. Where the host surprises the mark and takes them on a shopping trip to pick out appropriate jackets and shirts that hide the IWB holsters.