NCOs, come on in...

I'd like to go on a quick rant about some bs at work but I don't think there's many people here that can truly understand what it's like to be an NCO.

I'm a younger guy but I feel like I've developed some strong leadership values through experience as well as learning from those above me and around me more than anything else.

What I've seen lately at work just fucking disgusts me. I have a fellow NCO who outranks me that literally treats his men like shit. When I refer to "the men" I'm referring to a bunch of inexperienced kids who don't know any better that no one speaks of with any pride. When an NCO refers to his "men", he should refer to them with pride as if they were his almost his own blood. These "men" are provided no guidance yet berated, most of the time in extremely personal and inappropriate ways when they had a task that they did not accomplish yet they knew nothing about it. This certain NCO in question continuously fucks off all day and then at the last minute as everyone is getting ready to go home, he shows up displeased about the work that was done and proceeds to keep the guys there until 8-9-10pm doing bull shit tasks. Mind you, this NCO has no reason to go home as his family life is falling apart, which is inconsequential but I've noticed he's had a propensity to stay at work more and more to avoid the obviously inevitable. Just to be clear, his family life is of no concern to me, I'm only including that as I feel he is doing a poor job of differentiating home life from work life. He has no prior experience running the workplace that he is supposed to be overseeing, yet, when making a crucial decision, shoots from the hip on many things without consulting those around him and when this ends in a bad situation, he simply throw his "men" under the bus to get run over while he walks away faultless. This individual asks things of his "men" on a regular basis that he would not and does not do himself, and would never do these things as long as there is someone else that he can tell to do it for him. This individual constantly mixes his personal opinions of his men with his business opinions which also makes for a bad workplace. I have people that have worked for me that I would downright throw gasoline on if they were on fire, yet I keep that inside, focus on their good qualities, and support them in a professional manner to the utmost of my abilities. Just because I dislike certain things about their person, even though they are an outstanding soldier, doesn't meant I have to start poisoning the workplace with my negativity.

Maybe this is more of a bitch session than a rant. I don't have a dog in this fight, there fore it's not my place to step in and try to change things but I'm in a position where I see this everyday and I'm involved just enough with this workplace for the younger guys to come to me seeking advice which makes me feel helpless. I don't really bring it up to anyone as it's not my lane or prerogative to so maybe I can get it out here some. I have a couple of ideas in place yet have not decided on the appropriate course of action.

One of my favorite quotes of all time was from Band of Brothers when Captain Winters chided Lieutenant Buck Compton on gambling with the men and Buck said something a long the lines of "Christ, it was just gambling." Cpt. Winters said "What if you had won"? and Buck retorted with "What do you mean?. Then Cpt. Winters said one of the most profound things I believe any leader has said of those below them:


"What if you'd won? Never put yourself in the position where you can take from these men."

That rang very true with me and what I witness every day is the absolute opposite. When I thing of my "men" that thought is at the very front of my mind at all times.

Rant over, I just had to get that off my chest.

I'm not an NCO but I plan on being one some day and I work with a couple guys who always talk about their days as NCOs. I guess the only advice I can confidently give is to NEVER badmouth an NCO to a lower rank. Allow them to form the opinion on their own, but don't have any influence in it.

I know it seems like common sense but it's apparently a pretty big problem...

I'd call IG for violating policy regarding working late. Enough people start bitching it becomes an issue, not just bitching.

Soldiers will be home NLT1800 unless conducting approved training.

In today's Army, being promoted to a leadership position doesn't mean the person filling the position is in any way a good leader.

I have an NCO very much like the one you described... only reinforces my desire to be a much better leader than he is when I get there.

I always remember, even in my day to day civilian life, what my old CO always said "Rank has it's privileges but rank also has it's responsibilities as well and one of those responsibilities is to garner the deepest respect of your men. Do that and they will follow you through the gates of hell every single time". And yes, I would have followed him into the deepest pits of the Abyss because there have been very few since him that I respected even nearly as much.

The "best" NCOs I learned from were the worst as well. I learned not to be like them.

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Originally Posted by mcantar18c

In today's Army, being promoted to a leadership position doesn't mean the person filling the position is in any way a good leader.

I have an NCO very much like the one you described... only reinforces my desire to be a much better leader than he is when I get there.

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My squad leader got his E-5 because of a reenlisted. He was a POS. He would hide during training.
When I was Medivacd out of Iraq over half the soldiers there were NCO's. With a wide range of excuses as to why they were not in the sandbox. I as an E-4 had an E-6 under me. But then again the Cav is messed up.

Two things.

One, as was said do not badmouth NCO to the junior personnel. You need to vent, vent elsewhere. If they non-coms come to you for help, help them if actual rules are being broken.

Two, might be time to talk to the Company Gunny (or what ever you got that takes the place of the Marine Corps Co Gunny) in private about this. You do not get to take down a senior NCO yourself with out a BIG fuck up on their part.

Good NCO's like Jordan are hard to find.[Beer]

You do have a dog in this fight.

Of course the choices are yours and no one who isn't in or hasn't been in your shoes has enough insight to tell you what you should do, but...

The men are our soldiers and every NCO is responsible for their wellbeing. Have you spoken to the "worthless" POS NCO? Probably will do no good, but almost everyone deserves to be confronted directly and given at least one opportunity to straighten out their own mess. After that, there is the chain-of-command. There must be other NCOs at the same level and above the POS NCO. Most if not all should have noticed the POS NCO's behavior and are struggling with the same dilemma that you have; what do we do? Some of the other NCOs may have already taken action and the slow wheels of payback may already be grinding behind the scenes.

Once you have done what you can, regardless of what the outcome, you will need to let the issue drop with the knowledge that you have done what ever you were able to do. If you see opportunities to intervene or even out some of the more egregious behavior, by all means do so, but as you already know, injustice exists in this world, and no one walking the face of the planet today will ever make that go away.

If nothing else, this is another teaching moment for you and all of the other soldiers who witness this type of behavior. Sometimes bad lessons are better teachers than any others.

Good luck and Soldier On![Beer]

Sounds like to me that this particular NCO needs more training. Maybe find a senior NCO you can confide in and have him help you. Go one step up the chain of command at a time. The Sergeant Major or CSM should be aware that there is a problem in the ranks. Communication is the key.

*I never served in the Army, so I really don't know what it is like.

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Originally Posted by BushMasterBoy

Sounds like to me that this particular NCO needs more training. Maybe find a senior NCO you can confide in and have him help you. Go one step up the chain of command at a time. The Sergeant Major or CSM should be aware that there is a problem in the ranks. Communication is the key.

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If this person is a squad leader/section NCO go to the Plt Sgt.
take it to the 1SG

you do have a dog in the fight... YOU and your troops.
there will be a day when you may need that team to help your team or you may have to go bail them out.

Worst slogan ever was "Army of One"... you cannot be an army of one.
I agree, don't discuss with ANY juniors, don't even ask them about it.
Go to your NCO Support chain and voice your concerns.

Lots of good advice here and I say that having been an NCO and a mustang. The only thing I would add is to keep any discussions with the POS or his superiors behind closed doors. Don't call him out in public. Even though he sucks, you still can't undermine his authority in front of his men.

As a matter of fact, I would have the discussion with the superior before speaking with the POS. Tell them you need some mentoring on how to deal with a situation. Put it terms of how this guy is destroying morale and ask them to check into it for themselves. Keep yourself under control - it adds to your credibility.

If, for some reason, you have to take this to the O level try playing the IG card. Don't threaten, just mention it could happen and let the officers fill in the blanks as much as possible. And always, always, always ask them to check into the situation for themselves - that gives them the opportunity to come to their own conclusions and not feel like you've manipulated them.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Inconel710

Lots of good advice here and I say that having been an NCO and a mustang. The only thing I would add is to keep any discussions with the POS or his superiors behind closed doors. Don't call him out in public. Even though he sucks, you still can't undermine his authority in front of his men.

As a matter of fact, I would have the discussion with the superior before speaking with the POS. Tell them you need some mentoring on how to deal with a situation. Put it terms of how this guy is destroying morale and ask them to check into it for themselves. Keep yourself under control - it adds to your credibility.

If, for some reason, you have to take this to the O level try playing the IG card. Don't threaten, just mention it could happen and let the officers fill in the blanks as much as possible. And always, always, always ask them to check into the situation for themselves - that gives them the opportunity to come to their own conclusions and not feel like you've manipulated them.

Good luck.

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THIS^

but Please wear out any and all possibilities for even saying I and G in the same sentence.

if it were me I would just pull the Plt Sgt aside and "mention it" sort of "Hey SSG/SFC So-n-so, I've noticed this and I was wondering if you noticed it too. I'm not sure how to handle it and I was wondering if you could advise.."

this gives him all of the power and allows him to choose the direction.
Chances are he may already be aware but be apprehensive to move thinking its not that big...
others coming to him for direction on it may prompt him to move.

whatever you do, do not overstep.

best wishes