I was a little concerned initially since the barrel was a Midway badged AR Stoner and I am not sure who really makes the barrel. Here are the results from the first firing. This is at 50 yards with a 1/2 inch grid. I put the photo in a pdf.
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I was a little concerned initially since the barrel was a Midway badged AR Stoner and I am not sure who really makes the barrel. Here are the results from the first firing. This is at 50 yards with a 1/2 inch grid. I put the photo in a pdf.
I have to say this gun consistently shoots sub moa with everything I have tried from 58 grains to 80 grains. (I must admit I thought this was only possible with bolt guns. I was wrong.)
Once I jump to the 87 or 90 grain bullets, its all over the paper. I should mention this is a 20 inch pipe with a 1-8 twist so I didn't think it was a stabilization issue. But, perhaps I just wasn't slinging the heavier bullets fast enough to stabilize??
As an experiment I tried some 80 grain GMX (gilding) as they are longer than anything I have tried before. I was shocked to find a tight group with the slowest velocities I have measured out of this gun. The PoI also shifted low right...I am guessing due to the change in velocity.
My reason for wanting the heavier bullet/ non varmint is to use the gun on some fast goats. I guess I should just shoot what it likes and call it good!
87's and 90's H335 is your friend.
Varget is good but a man has to know his limitations.
I would try some.. I have had great luck with my 10 twist 6x45 and H335.
60's also love AA-2015BR max load.... like match winning potential.
Have you pushed a patch down your barrel to confirm that 8 twist?
Your 8 twist should have plenty of stabilization.
8-Twist RPM = 2700 x (12/8) x 60 = 243,000 RPM (2700ft/sec)
It is generally accepted that 160,000 RPM will stabilize a bullet.
I have tried H335, 2015, TAC, 4895, x-terminator and Varget with marginal inconsistent results. The 87 grain I have been using are the Hornady SP. I should probably weigh them to check the variance. Maybe its a bad lot. What bullet are you using? What barrel length? I should see if Sierra makes a non-varmit in the 87-90 range.
By the way mine also likes 2015 (25g) behind the 58 grain Zmax.
I have also been playing with the notion of ordering a 24 inch blackhole (another upper) to see if it would handle the heavier bullets better.
I have a Dtech built 1:10 20" full bull barrel 6x45 with an Olympic SUM (stainless Ultra-match broad cut barrel)Quote:
Originally Posted by IceAxe
Bullets wise I have been shooting Sierra 90 grain GameKing #1535 BTHP as well as the Remington Bulk pack 80 grain SP. I don't shoot bigger than this in my 6x45 due to the 1:10 twist. With your 8 twist the Hornady 87 grain SP should work well too. (I like Hornady bullets for hunting and targets, I use the 100 grain interlock exclusively for hunting in my 243 Win)
I mainly use my 6x45 for yotes but I have been toying with the idea of antelope as I guide hunters and want to use something different. I would use the Remington 80 grain bullets for speed goats without hesitation as they have a proven track record as a game taker and my rifle shoots very well with them. Not up to the 60 grain for accuracy, but well enough for hunting.
Well, as luck would have it the Warehouse didn't stock the 90 grain Gamekings. They did have an 85 grain Gameking so I got a box of those. I also picked up a box of Nosler partitions also in 85 grain. My plan will be to work up some loads with H 335 and see if I can get them to group.
Ok, well I 've had the loads ready in H335 to go to the range...so maybe I should work some up with Varget and some other powders, since it will probably be June before this wind dies down.
Wind?
What Wind?
I don't know what you are talking about.
http://www.windpowerninja.com/wp-con...ine-damage.jpg
I went out this morning in an attempt to beat the wind.
7 rounds each
Sierra GK 85g - 25g H335 - group 2"
Nosler Part 85g - 25g H335 - group 3"
Hornady SP 87g - 25g H335 - group 2"
All three groups where averaging about 2650 f/s
I am at a loss on this one. It will shoot clover leafs with 58 through 80 grain bullets. I absolutely love this cartridge.
I have checked the twist with the cleaning rod and get between 8 and 8.5 inches for a rotation.The only thing I haven't played with is the seating depth. All have been loaded to a COL of 2.26 to fit the magazine.
I think I will order some of the 80 grain Remington and give them a try. But other than that I can stick with what works.
That sucks.
Interesting that Hodgdon Data lists 85 grain bullets with H335 @ 25.5 grains out to be around 2800ft/sec. Sierra's data 85-90 grain bullets says 25 grains @ +/- 2700ft/sec . My rifle is usually really close in the chrono from published velocity.
Is there any pressure signs? If not, I wonder if you try and drive up the velocity a little if the group will tighten?
It does seem a bit low, although the Hodgdon printout I downloaded shows an 85 grain Speer with 25.5 grains of H335 at 2818 f/s from a 24 inch test barrel. Thats 4 more inches than I am running. I don't see any visible signs of pressure on the cases. This has just been a mystery to me.
One thing I failed to mention...I was so happy with the way it was grouping with the 75 grain vmax. I couldn't help myself, I ordered another same spec barrel and put together a second upper, as fate would have it, this one too preforms (as far as I can tell) identically.
What I really find perplexing is how well it shoots the 80 grain GMX. The GMX is longer than any of these 85, 87 or 90 grain lead core bullets. And it doesn't seen to have any problem stabilizing the GMX at 2400 f/s. They are so long it really cuts into case volume.
I think it would be worth the effort, costs and weight to order a 24 inch barrel and see how it handles the heavier bullets. If nothing else it should render a little more velocity.
Well I went ahead and ordered a 24" barrel from BlackHole. I wish more manufacturers offered this chambering (6mm-45). I think it probably one of the best/optimal chamberings offered in the ar platform (IMHO).
Blackhole says it should ship by August 17th. I hope it is worth the wait! In the meantime I bought another receiver group and parts to put together another gun.....it must be a sickness.
I'm not getting the consistant accuracy out of my BHW 18" 10-twist 6x45 I was hoping for, although I have shot some decent groups. Only have tried AA2015 & Benchmark for load work-ups.
This 5-shot 0.389" group @ 100yds was using 70gr Nosler B-tips over 24.5gr AA2015 right at 2798fps.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p31/eneranch/13.jpg
Nice... I hope my Blackhole barrel shoots as well, I just hate the wait.
I have been playing with the notion of ordering another 24inch barrel from DTECH and making a comparison.
Have you tried any of the 87 or heavier bullets?
75gr is the heaviest I've gone; this rifle is my coyote calling rig so no need for more weight.
my 20" bhw really likes 75gr vmax behind 8208 and cci primers
8208 is one powder I have yet to try....I will have to pick some up.
Mine too posts nice groups with the 75 and 80 grain bullets, where I seem to have problems is in the 85 and greater realm. I may be expecting too much, it is just hard to accept a 2 inch or greater group when all the lighter bullets well inside 1 moa.
I have wondered if it might be the chamber on my barrel, with regard to the throat. I am limited by the magazine as to the COL and the ogive of the heavier bullets may be increasing the distance of the lands.
I wish that black hole barrel would get here!
Gave Varget a try the other day; red dot is 3/4"
It's only 3 shots, but I LIKE !! [Wow2]
I'm heading back out tomorrow to see if I can duplicate this result; and a new battery in chrono to get FPS
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...scan0001-1.jpg
Wow! That is nice!
It is easy to see why folks love this cartridge!
One issue I have pondered is getting rid of all my loaded 223 ammo or marking the 6mm ammo so as to avoid any mistakes by accidentally cambering a 223 in the 6 milly.
Don't think chambering a .223 into the 6x45 would cause a big problem; chambering a 6x45 in a .223 would be VERY dangerous. [Rant1][Rant1][Rant1][Rant1]
All of my loaded ammunition is in clearly marked boxes; the only time I have loose ammo around is while hunting, & only 1 caliber at a time.
I recently purchased 500 new brass for my 6x45 and it has a unique headstamp; as long as my eyes work ok I can't mix them up.
I believe your right and I don't think there would be any real harm. Just thinking in the interest of safety.... I have a similar situation with my 338~06, but just made my eldest son happy my giving him all my 3006 stuff.
The only 223 I have now is in the form of a Bushmaster m4, so it would be an easy barrel swap.
Well I went out today, not really expecting much success, and tried some IMR 8208 with the "heavier" bullets that I have had so much trouble with and actually had some promising results. Prior attempts to shoot these bullets with other powders yielded 2 to 3 inch groups with no real pattern.
I had to do the ladder method on my BHW tube. Benchmark worked, varget worked, but until i ran the ladder method, i found what the tube told me it liked versus what I was telling it what i thought it liked. One thing with my tube is that it flat out hates anything flatbase above 75. BT's will pattern but not group above 80gr. The COL, like u mentioned, just flat out sucks. I'm thinking about buying a reamer, and rebarreling my savage 12 BVSS in 223. No turn neck so i can crank em out on my 1050...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceAxe
I did try a ladder test(s) using 0.5 grain increments on Varget, 335, Xterminator, 2015, and IMR 4895 with depressing results. I burned through 2 boxes of the 87 grain Hornady bullets and gave up on them moving to Sierra's in 85 and 90 grain and Nosler in 85 grain. Neither shot any better. It was perplexing that it could shoot half inch groups with the 58 or 75 grain bullets but 85 an heavier would go all over the place. Even more perplexing the 80 grain GMX gilding material bullets which are by far the longest bullets I have shot would print near clover leafs. I tried varying the distance of the lands within magazine limitations looking for a sweet spot but found no appreciable delta.
I have wondered if it could be related to the primers I have used Remington and Federal due to availability but perhaps I should be using a magnum or a bench rest primer especially with the ball powders. I just don't know.
I think I will try some of the Remington 80 grain bullets. But I am at a point where I think I should just load what it likes and call it good. Well... that is after trying out the 24 inch Blackhole barrel when it gets here. I've waited so long I now have everything but a stock to build another gun..
Primers can be finicky, i gave up on remmy's, federal match are my preferred. Try some winchesters, see if they do any thing different. Are you crimping at all? I have all my brass trimmed to 44.5mm, chamfered with a vld chamfer, then reamed. All primer pockets are cleaned and the flash holes deburred. I did find a huge bump in accuracy once i got away from range pickup brass and went to nosler/lapua.
When doing ladder's, i start at 300yds once i get the gun on paper.
It sounds like we do the same brass prep although I have been using Lake City brass mostly. (Midway had a nice sale on bulk a while back.) I haven't been crimping...most of my 6mm bullets don't have a cannulure. Are you thinking the heavier bullets could be moving as a result of the inertial cycling? I will try to remember to take the calipers with me to the range next time and do some before and after measurements.
The way those 87 grain bullets had been shooting I don't think I could get them on paper at 300 yards.
I ran a Primer Test yesterday using 70gr Sierra TNTs over 25.8gr Varget in brand new brass prepped & weighed with FedGM, Rem7-1/2, CCI400, & WSR primers.
Was not real happy with the results. Are you guys seeing the same things?? I can't seem to get low ES #s
Attachment 11952
Looks like you need to stick with Federal. I was very surprised by the Remington deviation.
I wonder if full length resizing might be adding to the velocity spread.
a couple other things...
Dies, i run redding, but I use a small base FL sizer to resize first for first neck up. Then I run the FL 6x45 resizer to make sure that they feed when I neck up from 223.
I make sure that all cases are chamfered/reamed with no nics or dings. Same with the primer pockets being cleaned, and flash hole. I do this because it's a bad prairie dog habit with my 250's. Cleaning brass prep is 3 shots (slight chamfer/ream on every one), with crushed walnut, then on the 4th, into the Stainless steel media tumbler to clean the insides.
I can load up a couple rounds with my 75vmax's (8208/BenchMark) and see if they run in your guns using my method if you want. I'll try and dig up my latest target, but it was on a windy day, and I'm really happy with the grouping considering the crappy weather.
That varget load should shoot, i'll duplicate the powder charge, chrono all loads and see what I get for groups or patterns.
The redding die part number is:
MM/223 Rem (6MM x 45) 80312
That sounds good. Do you want to try some of the 87 or 90 grain bullets?
I agree about the Federal; here are the groups shot at 100 yds( red dot is 3/4"), #1 is Win (called flyer) #2 is Federal $3 is Remington & #4 is CCIQuote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Osprey
Attachment 11960
Why do you think FLSing would cause a velocity spread??Quote:
Originally Posted by IceAxe
I use Redding Dies for my 6x45Quote:
Originally Posted by buckshotbarlow
This brass is brand new, weighed, sized, tumbled (fine corn cob), trimmed, primer pocket uniformed, flash hole deburred, chamfered, then final tumble. Sounds like we have the same method; if I'm doing something wrong, someone let me know.
Lets try the 75's first, then we'll work up. My gun hates anything above 80's.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceAxe
Maybe we should get together sometime at BenL. and figure out what's going on. I could bring my single stage press and components and we could work on some loads while there. This crap drives me nuttz. I only shoot the 75vmax's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eneranch
I agree; it's been driving me nuts for a while now.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckshotbarlow
If you want to get together at Ben Lomond sometime that would be fine.
I'll PM you my contact info.
here is a ten shot group from today with Federal primers, 25grains 2015 and 58 grain Zmax.
Spread of 58 fps
i talked to eneranch today about his BHW tube, and we're seeing the same problems. I'm going to try and get some 67 gr vmax to see what the hell they do. Also, gonna try some vvn powders either n135 or n530 to see if that does the trick. The velocity looks decent, but I think we are suffering from a ok barrel manufacture. I might have my gun smith set me up with a swap barrel for my savage.
One other thing, I'm gonna hit the range with a better scope next time. My 6-18 leo is gonna get bumped for a 8-32 mueller or burris. At 300 that should assist with load development. I have to get his gun ready for sept1, after dove hunting, the dogs might come out to see what the hell is going on...
Well let me know if you all break the code. I am going to play a little more with 8208. I also ordered a neck sizing die, but in the mean time I might try backing my fl die off a 1/16" and see if it has any measurable effect in velocity spread.