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So, I taught a class today on how to do color case hardening. I used a Sears .410 that I am going to end up rebarreling in .223 most likely. Anyway, here is my project receiver that I did today along with two test plates:
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...r/DSCN2057.jpg
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...r/DSCN2056.jpg
Nice!
That is awesome!
Pretty cool. Next time you are really bored you could try that with a 1911 slide. [Awesom]
That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that. I didn't do it to the hammer that goes to the gun because the last one I did, broke on my classmates gun. I am working on other process though to get some really nice colors that don't take too much heat to make. [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by ray1970
Those look great!
I had no idea. I just remember Olympic Arms used to offer a case hardened 1911 and I always thought it was kind of cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...r/P1010245.jpg
That is very cool, I wonder why they stopped making them though?
Volkmann also does case hardening for 1911s...
http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/...y_1_payday.jpg
Oly still makes them. They come in 3 sizes
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...d=130&Itemid=5
Trail Boss
http://olyarms.net/components/com_vi...-trailboss.jpg
Westerner
http://olyarms.net/components/com_vi...-westerner.jpg
Constable
http://olyarms.net/components/com_vi...-constable.jpg
I just emailed them as a very interested customer... I wanted to know how they were able to pull it off basically. Lets see if they answer. [Beer]
The Westerner Series from Olympic Arms (who's 1911 line was formerly known as Safari Arms, Inc, when M.S. Safari was purchased back in 1989) and shown in the previous pictures is a highly sought after line of 1911 that are in perpetual demand and therefore, perpetual back-order status.
The process used to create the case-colored look is in fact an old-school arsenic/calcium based process used to harden steel with the much desired case-cloring actually being a bi-product of the process. In the Old West, when metallic cartridge engineering was out-pacing the engineering of carbon steels, this process was introduced to add the necessary strength to the metals, and the coloring associated with the process was most often polished off. Now, it is the coloring that is desired and hardening.
Most current methods of case coloring are either simply heat relayed, or are a modified formula no longer like the original (because of the arsenic content), and require a great deal more heat than is used in the original process. Therfore comparing most commonly used methods with the original old-school methods is akin to the 'apples/oranges' argument.
This process used by Olympic is (because of the hazardous material issues) is contracted out, and is highly controlled, and while it does add significant tensile strength to the materials (in this case 4140 Chromemoly steel), it is simply not permitted to become brittle. This is controlled by factors such as chemical balance, heat and time in the bath. First produced in 2002, the Westerner Series was not officially cataloged by Olympic until 2004 as decisions were being made to handle volume, logistics, settling on models and options etc, as the first production models filtered through the system.
Let me be adamant in stating that outright dogmatic statements as we have seen here in this thread, or any suggestions or intimations that Case Color Hardening would "ruin your slide", or that, "it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that", are patently false, are made without any scientific basis in fact. Making such statements without a full understanding of the process is moot in any regards. With a 35 year history in the firearms industry, and a ten year history of the series with 8 of those years as some of the most heavily demanded 1911's on the market, the track record thus for for Olympic Arms Westerner Series 1911's speaks for itself.
May it also be noted that Kimber produced a 100 Year Commemorative model 1911 with a Case-color hardening finish as well.
I appreciate the opportunity to respond to this issue directly to your forums. If you have any questions or comments concerning the Westerner Series, please address then to me directly, and I'll be happy to address them.
Sincerely,
Tom Spithaler
Sales Director
Olympic Arms, Inc.
800-228-3471
tom@olyarms.com
Thanks for taking the time to register on our site and responding to the question - that speaks volumes about your company.
I'm lucky enough to own a Constable - it is quite nice.
Want to thank Tom aka "Rattler" for stopping in and setting it straight.
Spyder,
This crap is awesome!!! Just like the mill work on your Glocks, outstanding dude!!!!
Awesome you are willing to take a run at doing this stuff, learning it, and then sharing it with us. Keep it up! I enjoy seeing it!
[Awesom]
The way I was shown involves a kiln, 1375 degree temps, charcoal, and an air bubbled drum of cold water. The crucible that the part is in comes directly out of the kiln at 1375, the part is then dumped out of the crucible and into the cold water quenching it seconds after the kiln door opens... You are saying that this process would not hurt a 1911 slide?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler347
I am very interested in knowing this because from what I have been told, this process would hurt a slide. Hell, if it doesn't though... I'll have a color case hardened sub-compact here soon.
i remember hearing about a guy that used human bone meal for color case hardening, supposedly gave it the best look (i heard he legally got human bone meal from india or something)
That is the third time I've heard that also, I'll have to check in on it more! [Beer]Quote:
Originally Posted by jreifsch80
So, I'm done trying to find out info from the Olympic Arms guy, what an ass. I figured he got something wrong, I don't know how many people understand that I didn't say that Olympic Arms 1911's sucked or would break, but, I didn't. I told one guy that I couldn't do his 1911 the way I did my parts because the way in which I did it, would be bad for his slide. Now, I didn't know that there were other ways of color case hardening. As a matter of fact I didn't know about the Olympic Arms, or any other 1911's that were color case hardened at all. They looked old, and I thought they were out of production actually (something from back in the day). I was curious about how those companies had done their color casing. Anyway, after reading his response (Thomas from Olympic Arms), I decided to email him, actually I just sent my last email to the guy, this is how it all went down, and why he can go fuck himself:
This reads from top to bottom.
So, basically, here is the ending to all of this... There is more than one way to color case a gun or metal parts. The way in which I did it, from what I have been told by the people who taught me, is that it would probably ruin the slide (and has ruined other student's slides in the past). Now, how does Olympics color casing work? I have no idea, but it is different than the way I did it. I tried to find out, but you can see where I got. Anyway, there ya have it.Quote:
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:27 AM
To: tom@olyarms.com
Subject: color case hardened 1911
Hello, I was doing some color case hardening and mentioned it in a forum in which you stepped in on. I was wondering about the kind of color casing you guy do vs what I did to my project piece and the differences? Mine of course was the simple version which anyone can do at home with a kiln and no special chemicals or gasses. It was just bringing the parts up to 1375 degrees in a packed crucible for a couple hours at temp, and then quenching them really fast. I was under the impression that this process would not be good on a slide, or reciever that would be under high pressure. What can you tell me about this?
Adam
************************************************** ************************************************** *************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas A. Spithaler <tom@olyarms.com>
To: spyder
Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:09 am
Subject: RE: color case hardened 1911
Adam,
Glad you got back to me.
The problem with your note today, is that it softens your dogmatic statements made in a public forum with regards to products produced by Olympic Arms. In that forum you stated emphatically, and I quote (speaking of the Olympic Arms case color hardening process):
“That would ruin your slide..”
When you made that comment, you did not implore a caveat, or say it “might” ruin your slide. You did not say that it could “damage” the slide. You simply stated, as a fact, “That would ruin your slide..” and did so with NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of the process that Olympic Arms used to product their 1911’s – and the fact of the matter is – your statement is wrong.
And not only that, you went on to say,
“it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that.”
You made these statements in a dogmatic fashion as you are making a factual statement. These are not read as guesses, they are not stated to be your assumptions, you made these statements from the point of fact – yet the facts are, you are wrong.
Now that your comments have been “stepped on”, as if I’m the bad guy here, you send a light hearted letter asking questions rather than making apologies. You did not apologize for making false statements on the forum, and you did not apologize for making those statements in this letter to me. All you are doing now, is admitting by intimation, that your method of case color hardening may be different, and that based on these differences, the Olympic Arms product might actually be safe to use, by asking how we do ours.
I made my comments on your forum simply to set the record straight. If you had asked questions regarding the process from the beginning, rather than making false statements as factual ones, while at the same time laying accusations and judgments at the feet of the quality of Olympic Arms products, this would have turned out quite differently. You made your choice to make a statement, I made mine and corrected it.
Now to address your questions, yes, our process is considerably different. It is successful, as it has been for over a hundred years, and involves a controlled chemical heat-bath process that treats, hardens and colors the metals as a by-product. It is the same method that has been used by other major firearms manufacturers over the years in bolt guns and lever action rifles. The process has changed some to improve safety to the gunsmith, while at the same time providing an excellent, strong, and long lasting product.
Humility is a quality that is lost on most men, but is yet the single most important guideline to success.
I’ll close this by saying that the unfettered dissemination of misinformation is the single most contributing factor to the poor reputation that has befallen the firearms industry. We, as a group, not just as manufacturers, but as forum community members, have a responsibility to ourselves, and to the greater community at large, to make certain that every statement we made, is made with the clear knowledge of it being FACT, or OPINION. You made the mistake of stating an opinion (based on the knowledge you had available to you at the time), as if it were FACT. My goal, while certainly biased by the fact that it is my personal responsibility to protect the reputation of the product that the company I work for, is guided by the greater good to make certain that any statement that is expressed as fact and is not, be corrected.
The truth, in the end, is far more important than any other single factor. It is our duty to protect it.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 11:46 AM
To: tom@olyarms.com
Subject: Re: color case hardened 1911
Thomas,
I gather from your email, that you read what I said on the forum wrong. You need to go back and read it again, slowly this time. I did not say that your firearms were in any way defective due to the color case hardening process. I need to make this clear because you seem to be on the defensive right now. The direct link is here: http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthread.php?t=55763 What I think you might be referring to is post #7. In that post, I am quoted, "That would ruin your slide... it would break because it would be too hard/brittle for a part that takes abuse like that." I said that in post #5. I in no way shape or form said that your guns would break. The guy in post #7 was merely quoting me, in a questionable way, as, "if you said this, how can these guys make this 1911". As a matter of fact, I went on to say in post #8, "That is very cool, I wonder why they stopped making them though?", this is my only mistake that I would need to say sorry for because I guess you guys are still making them (I didn't know that). I then went on to post this, post #11, "I just emailed them as a very interested customer... I wanted to know how they were able to pull it off basically. Lets see if they answer." The next post is your post.
I emailed you in a friendly manner because I decided not to take your post as an attack, but merely as a misunderstanding. I hope you will go read the posts again and realize your mistake. I was commenting how the way I was doing it, would ruin a slide. Again, I didn't say that your process, or guns in general were poorly made in any way. I actually expressed a want to know how you were able to do it without sacrificing strength and durability.
Thanks for your time.
Adam
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas A. Spithaler <tom@olyarms.com>
To: spyder
Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:29 pm
Subject: RE: color case hardened 1911
Sorry, but I quoted you in context, no need to re-read them, “slowly this time…”
The only reason that I even addressed the post was because I had several readers email and or call me commenting on your post – all of them thinking their slides and or guns might brake based on your comments. I’m not the only person that interpreted the comments the way that I did.
If you have legitimate questions and desire to learn, I’m here to help. Otherwise, please make certain that your public comments are factual before you post them. If you had posted your questions first, we’d be in a whole different situation.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***************************
From: spyder
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:29 PM
To: tom@olyarms.com
Subject: Re: color case hardened 1911
Wow, I didn't expect such arrogance out of a "professional". Anyway, if you ever feel like taking the time to educate yourself on what was really going on, feel free. I see however you are one of those guys that already knows everything so anything that I might say, will have no effect. Anyway, I owe you no apology as I have said nothing bad. If you're not smart enough to set the readers with questions straight without blindly bashing someone else, I have no use talking with you as most like you are usually ass holes, and I can find the information somewhere else.
Oh, and it's break, not brake.
Mr. Adam Rogers,Quote:
Originally Posted by spyder
If you'd had made your earlier dogmatic statements in the manner you did above, you could have avoided this whole discussion. But you did not. You made a positive statement based on your limited understanding, when the reality is, you had no idea how the process used by Olympic Arms works, or how it affects the material upon which the process is delivered. If this has caused you embarrassment, I do apologize, but I quoted in context, and quoted you exactly. Everyone who read your comments understands your earlier remarks are intimating that providing a case color hardened finish to a 1911 slide would (And I quote you again) "ruin it". I did not choose those words, YOU did, and I do not know how they can be misunderstood.
If anyone reading this has any questions with regards to the process, I'll make you the same offer I have made Mr. Adam Rogers, the real author behind the remarks of "spyder", I'm happy to address them. I can be reached at tom@olyarms.com.
Well, I guess we got that straightened out.
What a wonderful display of vindictive posting from a manufacturing rep. who apparently lacks reading comprehension skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler347
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Originally Posted by Rattler347
tom i don't know spyder and have no dog in the fight but its pretty obvious spyder was speaking with what knowledge/technique he has/uses. it appears he had no idea of your products or any other 1911's with color case hardening or your process. after reading your emails back and forth you come off like a really big dick and instead of treating potential customers respectfully and understanding that he may not know everything about every technique. you probably lost some customers with your action, after all people were commenting on how cool the hardening looked and how it would be great on a 1911, then a picture of your product was posted with people interested in your product. a truly embarrassing moment for oly arms. fail
[ROFL1] agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodburbon
i think my 2 month old daughter has better reading comprehension skills.
Interesting to see a "Rep" coming out on a very public forum and potentialy harming his Business by insulting / degrading a potential customer / customer base. I sincerly hope that this "Rep's" supervisor does not find out that he just alienated their companys customer base. I for one will not be spending any of my hard earned money on any Olympic arms product and will reccomend others to do the same.
Thanks Tom!
And this is his last email which I found a couple minutes ago in my email:
Adam,
Sorry that the facts in the case leave you wanting. My lack of professionalism in your mind is sound exposition of fact and truth on mine. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but your comments were, and still are, very off base, and founded in a limited understanding of the process of which you questioned, and this industry as a whole. I do not need further education on a process that this company has been using successfully for nearly ten years, and that I understand perfectly well, and you sir, clearly do not.
My comments, both public and private, stand firm on their merit alone – I do not need to back-peddle or try to submit them in the err of altered context to be properly understood. Again, if you have questions, I’m happy to address them.
Tom Spithaler
Sales Dir.
Olympic Arms, Inc.
www.olyarms.com
1-800-228-3471
FAX: 360-491-3447
Ya, at this point, I'm done with it, I guess we'll agree to disagree about this... [Bang]
That is one impressive display of douchebaggery. I want to print this thread, frame it and put it on my wall.
I'm dumbfounded as to how this all went down.
I know not to deal with Oly and glad he came on to show his true un professional attitude. This is an example of why companies like that usually go out of business. Instead of being professional and taking the high road he just let his ego get the best of him. Hopefully the company gets smart and gets rid of this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattler347
I would forward on to a higher up and invite them on the forum. I don't think you did anything wrong Spyder....
Wow, just wow. I can honestly say that I will never give Olympic Arms any of my hard earned money, and they have Tom to thank for that.
Agreed. Lets start a count of how many here will not buy from them anymore.
1 here.
Spyder,
Based on the title of Sales Dir., I'll go out on a limb and say you never got technical answers about how their process works because he has no clue how it's done, he's just trying to protect their precious name.
And you in no way insinuated anything about their products, you were speaking about the process that you used. If he bothered to read the thread from the beginning, he'd see that.
his behavior reminds me of the saying:
“Samson killed 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Every day 1,000 sales are killed with the same instrument.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10mm-man
Count me in for avoiding oly arms from now on. Now my list has grown to two.
Ditto! Seriously, at first I was like "Damn, that 1911 looks great! I want one" and now I'm like... "HUH? Wow, this guy talks from HIS experience with the process which is completely different from Olympic Arms and he is being 'dogmatic' and 'bad-mouthing' the company??? No, I believe Tom did that all by himself." I think I'll just stick with Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Glock, S&W and Sig Saur for my pistol needs... And a few others. But due to one employee I'm thinking I'm never going to purchase anything from Olympic. Bravo Tom, Bravo! Way to misread a situation and be a huge dick about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakesurfer
ETA: Spyder, in regards to your ORIGINAL post- Well done, that looks fan-effing-tastic and I would love to one day employ your services... well when I get a weapon you could do that to! [Beer]
Think he could take time away from vehemently protecting them from an imagined slight and insulting customers to see if he can help get the backorders out? I finally cancelled an Oly upper I've had on order for months and based on this exchange will look elsewhere. In my opinion he completely misunderstood the thread and and blatantly ignored the "out" you gave him. Half expected a Gilda Radner-esque "Never mind". [Tooth]
I will correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthewall81
Guess I won't be buying that 10mm upper from them now.. Wow is all I can say.
I have to say my favorite part was the grammar lesson you gave him at the end of your email....still laughing[ROFL1]
I hope this spreads to other boards. That rep is a grade A d-bag. Wow.
Arfcom already doesn't approve of Oly arms soooo.