http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/video...G4Cb3ae4iXS86D
Almost sounded like a machine gun! Shooting begins around 1:35
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http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/video...G4Cb3ae4iXS86D
Almost sounded like a machine gun! Shooting begins around 1:35
What a bunch of bullshit. Couldn't have used a taser? Tired of these cops who are itching to shoot.
I guess the police were serious when they told him, repeatedly and loudly, to drop the knife. Maybe next time, he'll drop the knife, stop the threats and not advance on the officer(s).
Oh, wait...
Sorry. I'll save my outrage for more worthy events.
First, what the hell website is that? More booty shaking videos and rappers trying be all tough?
Okay, now, on to the story. His mother, saying it was a firing squad dressed in police uniforms, dumb. We don't have the full story about what happened and you can't hear every single thing that was said by both parties. It's hard to tell what prompted police to fire from that video... I won't rush to judge just yet.
Wow that was crazy. Seems to me that could have been handled differently but I wasn't there. Yes I realize he was told to drop the knife, but would a leg shot be out of the question here or is it shoot to kill in these situations?
Unless I'm seeing it wrong, it looks to me like the guy was walking away from the cops when then opened fire. As far as I can tell, nobody's life was in danger at that moment. It certainly did not look like he was "advancing on the officers" so I really wonder what caused them to start shooting.
Not passing any judgement here because I wasn't there and that amateur video probably doesn't reveal everything that was going on that day.
Also, maybe this is SOP, but after he had obviously been hit about 20 times, one officer just kept dropping rounds on him in a fairly controlled and consistent manner. Just making sure that the guy wasn't going to get up? Jittery on the trigger? SOP to empty the mag? Family said he had mental problems, which could have been mistaken for drug use I suppose and if someone on PCP was wielding a knife at me, I would empty my whole mag and put in a second one just to be sure. People on drugs have repeatedly not been stopped by a hail of bullets.
ALWAYS shoot to kill. IMHO if you are going to pull the trigger on someone, you had better intend to kill them.Quote:
Originally Posted by BUC303
No. You don't aim for a leg (unless that's the only option you have...shooting at a threat from under a car, maybe - think North Hollywood shootout) nor are police trained to "shoot to kill". They're trained to protect themselves by stopping the threat and shooting at center of mass...the largest part of the target that presents itself...because a bigger target is easier to hit than a smaller target.
We only have a small glimpse of the incident through that video. OK...so they fired 46 times. There were probably more than 6 officers there as noted in the video...I counted at least 7. That's about 6.5 rounds per officer.
Probably not an appropriate time for a TASER, either. Beanbags from a 12ga, maybe. But not everyone has those.
Good luck with that sort of statement in court. Cops are NEVER trained to shoot to kill. At least none that I know of.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadger
And there are two officers to the left side (in the direction Hall was advancing) that can be seen before and after, but not during, the shooting.
No more seat assignments for that frequent flier…
I never said I would say that in court, only a fool runs his mouth in the courtroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
But as a personal philosophy, if someone enters my house with intent to inflict harm upon myself or my family, I will certainly not just try to shoot the intruder in the leg. If someone confronts me in public with a knife and is intent on causing trouble, I would not "put a cap in 'yo knee!" I would put 15 caps in your chest.
Oh...yeah, I guess an investigator could never find archived posts from an online forum. What was I thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadger
You folks that shoot to wound please visit CRS on deadly force. And buy some more liability insurance. Every LEO I know, is trained that a DEADLY FORCE incident will/should produce death. If I pull my gun and shoot it. I am trained to put two center mass and one in the head. Evaluate, look for more threats and possibly cover. If I encounter a knife weilding bandit at 7 yards or less, with my partner the crook had better have at least 6 holes in them. Have a great day guys.
Was the dude a midget?
Nobody said "shoot to wound". Police officers are trained to stop the threat and to use the minimal amount of force necessary to do that.
I doubt there is a LE agency in the state with a policy manual that has in it the phrase, "shoot to kill".
And I know the definition of Deadly Force: Force, the intended, natural and probable consequence of which is to produce death, and which in fact does produce death.
Also sounds like maybe you need to update your training regimen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
Technically, not even the Army uses shoot to kill- yes they emphasize kill the enemy and blah blah blah, but in all my weapons training they press on the subject "eliminate the threat." Take that however you want it, but aside from DS's yelling kill and what not, I've not really heard emphasis on kill but eliminate or neutralize. Snipers of course are an exception to this. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bailey Guns
One shot-one neutralized threat! Yea, doesn't quite fit....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin13
People are quick to jump the cops' shit about shooting the guy. Funny thing is, if this guy starts running away and then goes and stabs someone, then they die, those cops would have been liable. People would say, "Why didn't you stop the threat and not let him run loose with a deadly weapon?" Lose lose on a lot of these. Maybe if the shitbag would have listened to the very clear and concise orders of the police then he would still be around. He without a doubt heard them and knew what they wanted him to do, but refused to do it. The video said he was involved in a "disturbance" or something with the clerk? What if he brandished the knife to the clerk or told him, "I'm gonna stab you". Who knows. Maybe the call came out that way to the cops because the clerk freaked out so they thought they were dealing with a violent and armed man. Those kind of people don't walk away from Police when they are carrying a deadly weapon. Too many variables in play here, but regardless NO MATTER WHAT the circumstances some POS will say, "Why didn't you shoot him in the finger with a taser so that he could just say ouch and then drop the knife?" Frankly, fuck that.
I've seen Dirty Harry several x's.
Bailey, I'm not telling you what to do, so cool your chops. The correct nomenclature that I'm trying to express is "eliminate the threat".
When I said: "IMHO if you are going to pull the trigger on someone, you had better intend to kill them." I mean that shooting someone in the leg can be just as fatal as shooting them in the head. I hope nobody would shoot someone in the leg without the intention of killing them, because they may very well die and after the bullet leaves the barrel, you are no longer in control.
Uh, where is the decision to use less than lethal force and lethal force? Just curious. It didn't look like any attempt to use "less than lethal methods" were made. What ever happened to shotgun bean bags? As tax payers, we pay an awful lot of money for development and deployment of these means. It seems they are over looked anymore. I'm not criticizing these guys for their actions, just wondering about the decision making process.
Personally, I think this guy could have been disarmed quite easily by 6 guys with batons. I do not think this is going to sit easy in Mich.
Amen! I've always believed that if a LEO has their weapon drawn you better do exactly what they say, better to fight any wrong doing in court than physically on the street! Also they said this guy had a history. Mama shouldn't be surprised, it was only a matter of time before this guy became another statistic (dead or in jail- happens to repeat offenders).Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Giv
All these people up in arms about how many rounds were fired, that's their training. I'd rather they shoot one dirtbag guy 50 times and all the cops go home safe, than shoot him a few times, he not stop and kill or injure a cop. [Beer]
I think you and I would get along just dandy...no homo. [HiFive]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin13
Nobody is up in arms about the number of rounds fired, I was just curious if anyone knew why it went down the way it did.
sheesh! [Dunno]
I gotta with suicide by cop this one.
Dude wanted to be done.
If someone has a gun on you and says put down the knife, and you don't, guess what.?
Well based on the footage it is impossible for me to tell. I've seen guys that have been shot 15+ times that kept moving. Potentially the guy went down, still had the knife in his hand, and continued to move. Hence why they shot so much. Or the person at the end firing methodically and slowly panicked and just kept shooting. I can't say. That person has phenomenal tempo or they were tunnel visioned out and just kept shooting.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadger
1. It is a shitty cell phone camera so who knows what the Officers saw that made them shoot.
2. As others have said, you shoot to stop the threat, no more no less, stopping the threat is different in every situation.
3. You do not deploy a Taser or other Less Lethal option without Lethal cover (Don't take a Taser to a knife fight). They did have plenty of LEO on scene and maybe one had a Taser out. Like the point in #1 it is a shitty video the LEO's with lethal cover may have seen something to respond the way they did.
4. Respect the job that LEO's do, if you can do it better, go get a job as a LEO. Being a Firefighter we rib each quite well, but I have noting but the utmost respect for most LEO's on the job. It is a tough job that I would not want to do. Are there bad cops out there? Yes. Are there bad politicians, firefighters, cooks, bus drivers, clowns? Yes. The problem is all anyone puts on the news is the bad things LEO's do, so of course EVERY cop is bad. I have seen cops run into fires to try and save a life - ballsy, stupid but ballsy.
IMO, You have to do what the situation calls for. I do find 30+ rounds to be a bit excessive for one perp given what is seen in the video.
Without completely seeing how it completely unfolded, I find it hard to pass any judgement toward either side.
Well considering I want to join your elite brotherhood (forgive me if I wanna get on Jeffco)... [PoPo]Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Giv
Fuck that, I'm the first to call the cops to the carpet but damn people need to chill. This dude had a knife you want them to use non-lethal force? Those men and women do not need to run out there and try to disarm, they are the good guys and deserve to go home to their families. T-giv said it right when he said about the repercussions if he would've gotten away and stabbed someone. Did you guys forget about the banger hat escaped from the hospital in Greeley? He had plenty of opportunity to drop it. Fvck em, if you wanna go the mental handicapped route, well his mom shoulda had hm on lock down. I blame the mom and family.
I'm not a cop never have been, and don't even play one on tv.
What I don't understand is why they didn't release the dog on him. They warn him about the dog, you can hear the dog barking, and he acknowledges the dog being used if he doesn't cooperate. At this point there is a immenat threat to self and others to the point that they can justify using the dog on him. They clearly had lethal force if the dog didn't work out.
I won't blame the cops for shooting him, I would too if a guy (who appears to be low IQ and likely unable to understand the results of his actions) with a knife came at me. I just don't understand why they didn't use a less lethal means that was not only available, but a command away from ending the situation.
Probably didn't want the dog to get hurt. Police dogs are very expensive and time consuming to train.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatline
I agree. The guy was telling them to go ahead and release the dog as if he had a plan to stab the dog if it came at him. Police dogs are considered state sworn officers so to them (the cops) it's like sending an officer on a suicide mission, not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadger