Car guys, I need your help!

This is the second time this has happened in 3 days... My mom has a 2003 VW Beetle, it's a manual, and Sunday when she was leaving lunch down in Denver with some friends the car wouldn't start- and it resulted in her engine flooding (somehow). Then again last night, she went to pick it up from Big O tires and again it failed to start and the engine flooded, she also feared that she killed the battery. We went and rescued it this morning, after jumping it, it started right up and she drove it straight home and plans to take it in to VW next week. I have not been present the two times she's had issues starting it, and I don't know enough about cars to diagnose the problem. From what she said she puts the clutch in, turns the key and it tried to turn over but fails, then the engine somehow floods (I know, this confused me too, she's not giving it gas while trying to start it). Anyone know, from this very little amount of info, what is the problem and how to fix it?

Stuck fuel injector/s would be my first guess. Shut the car off and the residual pressure in the fuel rail dumps into the cylinders because the injector is not closing properly. How has her mileage been?

"it tried to turn over but fails"
Define "fails" - the engine turns over and fails to start or it will not turn over at all?

Yeah, modern cars shouldn't flood the cylinders. I'm also going to go with fuel injectors.

The flooding thing i am not sure about, most newer cars have a safety feature built into the ECM preventing the engine getting more fuel than necessary, however because of the flooding have the spark plugs been changed out? Due to the flooding, spark plugs can become fouled because of the excess fuel getting them wet. This could be why it's not firing when the engine is trying to turn over. Beetles aren't my expertise so don't hold me to it.

What works for me -
If it doesn't start after a few tries, floor the gas pedal and try again. This seems to prevent flooding.

Injectors or bad plugs. If she's not getting spark, she's not getting combustion.

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Originally Posted by BPTactical

Stuck fuel injector/s would be my first guess. Shut the car off and the residual pressure in the fuel rail dumps into the cylinders because the injector is not closing properly. How has her mileage been?

"it tried to turn over but fails"
Define "fails" - the engine turns over and fails to start or it will not turn over at all?

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I guess it turns over but doesn't start... again I haven't been present during these issues. I'll pull the plugs tonight and see what I can see, but as far as injectors go, I don't know what I'd be looking for. I can find out if her mileage has been off lately.

Replace the plugs. If you are going to go to the trouble to pull them out you might as well spent the $12.00 and replace them. After that I would dump some Sea Foam in it (available at Walmart) and see if that cleans the injectors out. Since new injectors are around $135 new, $60 reconditioned, a piece for the Beetle. Plus they can be a real pain in the ass depending on where they are and whats on top of them.

I am confused. You are said it turned over but didn't fire, then you said you rescued her by jumping it? If it was turning over why did you jump it? Either way if jumping it worked I would start off simple, look towards the battery. Jumping it will not change anything in the fuel system to make it work, even temporarily. Maybe it is turning over but not enough to get it to fire? If that doesn't do it change the plugs, they are cheap and easy. If that still doesn't work you know it's fuel related.

If it turns over slowly because of a dead or dying battery it will flood. Injectors rarely ever cause flooding on thier own. If it is a Turbo and has the DI setup with the high pressure mechanical pump driven off the cam and that is causing an issue your in trouble, because thats going to be expensive.

However from your description my bet is the battery or the starter is on its way out and simply cannot turn the motor fast enough for it to start. Have battery checked prior to taking it to the dealer, or send it by and I will take a look at it for you.

EDIT- also, if it has flooded even once, the plugs must be replaced. Years ago a Bosch engineer showed me how a plug absorbs fuel into the ceramic insulator and once it does it causes a lot of problems and the plug will never be "right" again. Be glad to help you with that as well.

Call Chris aka bavarian auto aka tmleader here.

It could be bad coil plugs, vw and audi have had a problem with this

I blame the onions

^^ Again, do not trust the friskie licker. [ROFL1]

Well here's what she just emailed me explaining exactly what happens:
"just keeps cranking, sounds like it's not getting gas, but yet if you step outside you do the smell the gas, which is why I thought 'the flooding issue' and the fact if it sits for an hour+ it will start."

We jumped it this morning after letting it sit at Big O all night... She was just afraid the battery was dead after trying to crank it last night. It started up fine today, but she's worried that since this has happened twice it may happen again. I think we'll replace the plugs and run sea foam (I do that about once every other month in my car to keep the injectors and what not clean [Beer]).

Injectors are stuck open.
Yup, replace the plugs after replacing the injectors.

FWIW: outside the starting / flooding issue when was the last time you ran a can of B&G 44K through the system for cleaning the injectors?

First off there are a couple things that I would do. I would run the tank really low then fill up on Premium and then add a bottle of Fuel Injector Cleaner. This will clean out your fuel system real good and also make it a little easier to start for the time being.

Second I would replace or re-gap the spark plugs. If if is getting to much gas an flooding, it wont start. Conversely if it is not getting hot enough spark to fire then it could cause it to flood if the injectors are dirty. I would attack both possibilities at the same time.

Then if you are still having too many problems after the tank of gas has been run through and the spark plugs replaced then I would look at spark plug wires and replacing fuel injectors. That is going to be pretty expensive if you have someone else do it for you.

The battery could be on its way out and not cranking well enough to start the car. You will have to replace the battery if this is the case. But while troubleshooting this problem do not allow your battery to fully go dead to the point of needing a jump start. That will kill the battery really quick and add to the cost of the repair. If it looks like it is not going to start, stop cranking before the battery dies and get a car there to jump it if that helps it. Batteries are super expensive right now with the cost of lead spiking up so high. I just had to pay $139 for one the other day.

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Originally Posted by jim

FWIW: outside the starting / flooding issue when was the last time you ran a can of B&G 44K through the system for cleaning the injectors?

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I don't think she's ever done this... The hierarchy of automotive knowledge in our family goes as such (From most to least):
Me
Mom
Dad
Brother
I told her I'd yank the plugs tonight and see what we will see- we might as well just replace them, and get something like 44K, Sea Foam, or some other fuel system cleanser- then see if the problem still persists we'll probably have to replace the injectors. The problem is, she wants to take it to a VW mechanic next week and have them diagnose and fix the problem- I see this as potentially being expensive.

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Originally Posted by Danimal

First off there are a couple things that I would do. I would run the tank really low then fill up on Premium and then add a bottle of Fuel Injector Cleaner. This will clean out your fuel system real good and also make it a little easier to start for the time being.

Second I would replace or re-gap the spark plugs. If if is getting to much gas an flooding, it wont start. Conversely if it is not getting hot enough spark to fire then it could cause it to flood if the injectors are dirty. I would attack both possibilities at the same time.

Then if you are still having too many problems after the tank of gas has been run through and the spark plugs replaced then I would look at spark plug wires and replacing fuel injectors. That is going to be pretty expensive if you have someone else do it for you.

The battery could be on its way out and not cranking well enough to start the car. You will have to replace the battery if this is the case. But while troubleshooting this problem do not allow your battery to fully go dead to the point of needing a jump start. That will kill the battery really quick and add to the cost of the repair. If it looks like it is not going to start, stop cranking before the battery dies and get a car there to jump it if that helps it. Batteries are super expensive right now with the cost of lead spiking up so high. I just had to pay $139 for one the other day.

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Thanks for that- good advice right there... I told her about an hour ago how we should attack this problem. I hadn't thought about seeing the spark plug spacing... [Beer]

1- Fuel injector cleaner is a good idea
2- I doubt you can gap the OEM plugs, they are likely multi-electrode type plugs, also you cant really clean modern spark plugs like you could in the good ole days
3- There are no plug wires, the VW products use COP (coil-on-plug) systems and these coils are known troublemakers.
4- Yeap, the battery not cranking enough is always an issue, also, in modern cars the battery can have enough juice to crank, but not enough to actually start the car. The motor will turn over, but the ECU does not see over X volts (usually 9 but it varies) the car will not start.

If it were me (and what to I know) I would-

Check the battery, and its ok to take it to an auto parts store for this, but even if they say its ok there can be other issues, such as corrosion on the terminals etc. One thing about living in an arid region like Denver is the battery life tends to be shorter because the water in the batteries evaporate at a higher rate, and most people dont remember back in the ole days when you had to heck the water in batteries...

Next I would put in new plugs.No use in checking them or whatever, its been flooded so replace the plugs. Use only NGK. You can use Bosch, but Bosch plugs are pretty much junk so use NGK.

Stuck injectors are a possibility, but you have no idea how bad it has to be to actually flood a modern car bad enough that it wont start. Still, it will not hurt to run a tank full of treated fuel through it. Also, use REGULAR. Regular fuel is much more volatile than premium and ignites easier. The entire reason for using higher octane (premium) fuel is to slow down the burn rate, which we are not concerned with here. Try and use fuel from a trusted source. Water in the fuel can be a bastard.

ASSuming that there is still an issue after this, STOP and take it to someone who knows what they are doing, because you may be looking at a component failure. Chris (tmleader03) is a good guy, and I may have time to help you out myself depending on timing. Whatever you do I would recommend being careful as VW's are cars a lot of people claim expertise in but those are the people who spend more time replacing things because they are guessing than properly diagnosing and fixing the issue.

If you want to run anything by me or get some input, all my contact info is at grid-1.net

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwalker460

1- Fuel injector cleaner is a good idea
2- I doubt you can gap the OEM plugs, they are likely multi-electrode type plugs, also you cant really clean modern spark plugs like you could in the good ole days
3- There are no plug wires, the VW products use COP (coil-on-plug) systems and these coils are known troublemakers.
4- Yeap, the battery not cranking enough is always an issue, also, in modern cars the battery can have enough juice to crank, but not enough to actually start the car. The motor will turn over, but the ECU does not see over X volts (usually 9 but it varies) the car will not start.

If it were me (and what to I know) I would-

Check the battery, and its ok to take it to an auto parts store for this, but even if they say its ok there can be other issues, such as corrosion on the terminals etc. One thing about living in an arid region like Denver is the battery life tends to be shorter because the water in the batteries evaporate at a higher rate, and most people dont remember back in the ole days when you had to heck the water in batteries...

Next I would put in new plugs.No use in checking them or whatever, its been flooded so replace the plugs. Use only NGK. You can use Bosch, but Bosch plugs are pretty much junk so use NGK.

Stuck injectors are a possibility, but you have no idea how bad it has to be to actually flood a modern car bad enough that it wont start. Still, it will not hurt to run a tank full of treated fuel through it. Also, use REGULAR. Regular fuel is much more volatile than premium and ignites easier. The entire reason for using higher octane (premium) fuel is to slow down the burn rate, which we are not concerned with here. Try and use fuel from a trusted source. Water in the fuel can be a bastard.

ASSuming that there is still an issue after this, STOP and take it to someone who knows what they are doing, because you may be looking at a component failure. Chris (tmleader03) is a good guy, and I may have time to help you out myself depending on timing. Whatever you do I would recommend being careful as VW's are cars a lot of people claim expertise in but those are the people who spend more time replacing things because they are guessing than properly diagnosing and fixing the issue.

If you want to run anything by me or get some input, all my contact info is at grid-1.net

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Thanks for that- I'll do just this and see, if we can't get it working with what you suggested, I'll see if she's open to having Chris or you take a gander and what not. I do not plan on doing any injector work myself as I'm not knowledgeable enough for that- I can change plugs, alternators, batteries (duh) oil, and some other this and that type of stuff, but nothing too serious. Does CarQuest sell NGK plugs? My buddy owns the CarQuest shop up here in Evergreen and we pretty much exclusively buy our automotive stuff from him. Thanks again and I hope I won't need you or Chris to take a look at it.

injectors / injector o-rings / weak spark due to plugs or low voltage / weak fuel pressure / something as simple as the water temp sender could be spraying more fuel than necessary too.

Any codes?

Get a hold of tmldr03 he is a master mechanic in German vehicles[Beer]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwalker460

1- Fuel injector cleaner is a good idea
2- I doubt you can gap the OEM plugs, they are likely multi-electrode type plugs, also you cant really clean modern spark plugs like you could in the good ole days
3- There are no plug wires, the VW products use COP (coil-on-plug) systems and these coils are known troublemakers.
4- Yeap, the battery not cranking enough is always an issue, also, in modern cars the battery can have enough juice to crank, but not enough to actually start the car. The motor will turn over, but the ECU does not see over X volts (usually 9 but it varies) the car will not start.

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Yes the plugs can be re-gapped if they are not the bosh plugs, and the iridium spark plugs could be lightly brushed up and gapped. I think that they came stock with NGK according to some quick research I did. If they are the stock plugs they are probably due for changing anyway. If they have less than 60k on the plugs I would say clean them up and try to save the $20 if you can. But that is just me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwalker460

If it were me (and what to I know) I would-

Next I would put in new plugs.No use in checking them or whatever, its been flooded so replace the plugs. Use only NGK. You can use Bosch, but Bosch plugs are pretty much junk so use NGK.

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NGK are the best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwalker460

Stuck injectors are a possibility, but you have no idea how bad it has to be to actually flood a modern car bad enough that it wont start. Still, it will not hurt to run a tank full of treated fuel through it. Also, use REGULAR. Regular fuel is much more volatile than premium and ignites easier. The entire reason for using higher octane (premium) fuel is to slow down the burn rate, which we are not concerned with here. Try and use fuel from a trusted source. Water in the fuel can be a bastard.

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I took this as more of a been cranking on it for a while kind of thing, mostly because the battery died. If that is the case a smaller leak would do it. Premium fuel does in fact burn slower, but it also burns hotter and a spark is just as likely to start either under the same situation because they have the same flashpoint. The main reason to use premium fuel for this application is because fuel injector cleaner is just octane booster. You will get more bang for your buck out of the fuel injector cleaner and it will do a better job cleaning out your fuel system.

There are 12 possible engines for this year. VW was insane, too many engines all just different enough that you can't order parts easily. Honest to god the easiest way is to just pull the part off and read the part number stamped on it to VW.

Many things are going to be common between them all, but the different L engines have issue just for themselves. Knowing the engine code will help at some point I bet. You find that on the cylinder head.

Lets stick to basics. Does it have a check engine light on? If yes, start there before anything else. Trust me it will save you money that way.


Do you have another key for it? If you don't have a check engine light on change keys out and see if it does it on the other key. It honestly sounds like the immobilizer is messing up. When the car does not recognize the key it will shut off spark. Not always fuel. So you think it is flooding because the fuel isn't being burnt but the injectors are firing. This would be my bet. Of course free advice is worth what you pay for it. You want a real opinion call my number(during working hours, I don't answer the phone after hours) or email me to have a look at it. I am free Monday afternoon or Tuesday next week for now unless someone jumps on my schedule before you contact me.

Good luck! Probably could use some plugs anyways.

On the subject of the car's computer not recognizing the key, when was the last time the battery in the key fob replaced ? A weak or almost dead fob battery could cause this too.

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Originally Posted by SideShow Bob

On the subject of the car's computer not recognizing the key, when was the last time the battery in the key fob replaced ? A weak or almost dead fob battery could cause this too.

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Good point.