Pro hunting shows and expanding broad heads...

I just don't get it. I have watched the release and now mainstream use of expanding broadheads, and I am still dumbfound as to why they are so popular. Consistently, these hunting shows are not getting pass-through hits with these things. There are full grown men hunting professionally, 60+ pound draws on compound bows. Dude, my wife with a PSE Nova at 30 lb draw would regularly put a NAP Thunderhead or Muzzy clean through a mature full sized deer, blood everywhere. If it takes that much energy to open the blades, some have estimated 30-35% of the overall KE, how can this be a good thing? The only advantage I see is the arrow doesn't have to be spin tuned for the broadhead. Ya, with a carbon this can be an issue since you are using epoxy, but I still easily get 10 out of 12 arrows to spin tune. I just don't get it. It's not even good sponsorship showing this product not being able to punch through a whitetail.

People are just too lazy to do some basic broadhead tuning and the companies that sponsor the shows are catering to that. The shooters on the shows don't get a choice what gear they use; it's all provided by the sponsors and required for them to use it as part of their contract. It's not as nice as everyone thinks being a pro shooter.

I'd have to disagree. Although i love the bone smashing of the muzzys and shoot them through my blind and on spot and stocks, i took down a big buck last year with a complete pass through on a rage 2 blade. Actually the arrow went about anothers 20 yards through it. The only reason i tried the rages was because of their accuracy. i had great accuracy with the mx-4's but could never get them to fly with my field points. which limits my bow to muzzys alone.

I shoot all varieties.

Cut on contact in my rrecurve
chisel tip on a compound
mechanical in the cross bow.

Trying to get a fixed blade to not plane in a fast cross bow is a huge PITA. The mechanicals make sense.

Also, with the extra energy from a crossbow, no problem with pass through. The first deer I took with it I thought I missed. There was no visible sign of impact like I see with a normal bow.

Broadhead tuning will solve all of the issues mentioned above. Spend 10 minutes and do it. Once done, any point of the same weight will impact in the same spot. It's not tough or a PITA to do, just do one does it anymore due to lazyness or ignorance. Most so called "pro shops" don't do it as the 18 yr old kids they employ don't know and the pro shooters that used to hang out at the shops don't anymore.

Ive read alot about broad head tuning and everything about it. I could ever to get my muzzy;s to fly with my field tigs. same arrow and point weight. I consider myself a pretty good shot as i shoot two or three nights a week. But yes i would say i am under skilled on complete tuning of a bow. But i know personally after folling pages of BH tuning guides, still never worked.

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Originally Posted by runninlope

Ive read alot about broad head tuning and everything about it. I could ever to get my muzzy;s to fly with my field tigs. same arrow and point weight. I consider myself a pretty good shot as i shoot two or three nights a week. But yes i would say i am under skilled on complete tuning of a bow. But i know personally after folling pages of BH tuning guides, still never worked.

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Go see Bill Pelligrino at the Archery Hut in CO Springs....he'll get you taken care of.

only problem is i live 3 hours from the city and never go into town

I can get a bow in tune. A cross bow, way different story.

My nephew is part of a smaller show on cable and they use expanding broad heads that they are given from a sponsor. They just got back from white tail hunting in NE. Ever shot was through and through.

Yep, I get the crossbows using mechanicals. Some of the higher end ones are pushing velocities that would cause some planing even tuned. The compound bows? Na, spin tune them and paper tune the bow. They'll shoot like lasers.

Runninlope, If you are getting the Muzzies spin-tuned, there is something slightly off on the bow tuning. I would have to see the bow and see it while shooting to try and figure it out. Paper tuning the bow will really point out issues with the bow tuning.

I have shot a lot of deer with mechanicals.. I love them! Huge holes which equals amazing blood trails. I shoot spitfires and I have killed deer at pretty long ranges.. If they are killing deer why change! I also have had pass throughs through all but one and that's because I hit the opposite side shoulder.. As long as you put a good hit on them it shouldn't matter if its a fix blade or mechanical

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As long as you put a good hit on them it shouldn't matter if its a fix blade or mechanical

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you should add, "and as long as you have adequate KE", which is why so many fail to get complete pass throughs.
Personnaly, I prefer two holes, one in and one out, every time. Nothing but COC for me on everything except turkeys.

Im not a real fan about people throwing out the whole Kenetic Energy bs. If you are shooting any compound bow made within saw the last 15 years and shooting more than 40 pounds you can punch a mechanical through one side and either into the other or punture through the other. Kenetic energy is most influenced by speed. so if you shooting 40# or a long bow no dont shoot mechanicals. But idk if these people shooting mechanical are shooting quartering to shots or what by my 2 blade mechanicals will punch through anything atleast once. Also, having a exit hole does nothin to get a quicker kill as all that matters and whats going on in the rib cage. I know my 2 inch hole i put through the first side and through the lungs will knock anything down quick. My bow in a diamond i think 5 or 6 years old pumps more than enough "KE" into an arrow with a mechanical. sorry for the rant lol just my OPINION

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Originally Posted by runninlope

Im not a real fan about people throwing out the whole Kenetic Energy bs. If you are shooting any compound bow made within saw the last 15 years and shooting more than 40 pounds you can punch a mechanical through one side and either into the other or punture through the other. Kenetic energy is most influenced by speed. so if you shooting 40# or a long bow no dont shoot mechanicals. But idk if these people shooting mechanical are shooting quartering to shots or what by my 2 blade mechanicals will punch through anything atleast once. Also, having a exit hole does nothin to get a quicker kill as all that matters and whats going on in the rib cage. I know my 2 inch hole i put through the first side and through the lungs will knock anything down quick. My bow in a diamond i think 5 or 6 years old pumps more than enough "KE" into an arrow with a mechanical. sorry for the rant lol just my OPINION

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Sorry, but you cannot re-define the physics of a moving object. KE and momentum are both velocity and mass dependent. If you are losing approximately 30% of your KE and not changing your mass, the loss comes directly out of the velocity. Although this only lowers the KE slightly because the KE's velocity is squared, the velocity for momentum is not. So, the loss IS going to significantly affect the momentum and therefore the ability to penetrate.

An exit hole does do more to kill. It's another blood outlet. Internal bleeding will eventually incapacitate an animal, but it's also restricted by tissue and membranes so the bleeding is slower. Secondly, the exit hole is more blood on the ground. I like tracking with more blood on the ground.

I know the formula for KE. But mechanicals dand reduce KE by 30 percent. My mechanicals open with virtualy no force. it takes nothing to open them. hell i have shot the muzzy mx-4 into a layered target with rages and rage practices that dont open. i on average get less penetration with the MX-4. The mechanicals maybe lower your KE by 5%. it cant be any more. But what hangs them up is a 2 to 2 3/8 cutting diameter that often catches ribs on the entry where the fixed blades will glance along the ribs. I can only speak for the rage 2 blades i have as i havent shot any other mechanical yet, but as for them, an irrelevant amount of KE is lost due to force opening the blades.

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Originally Posted by SA Friday

Sorry, but you cannot re-define the physics of a moving object. KE and momentum are both velocity and mass dependent. If you are losing approximately 30% of your KE and not changing your mass, the loss comes directly out of the velocity. Although this only lowers the KE slightly because the KE's velocity is squared, the velocity for momentum is not. So, the loss IS going to significantly affect the momentum and therefore the ability to penetrate.

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I agree with what you are saying, but not your math.

Since F=MA, or KE = MV^2, you get a bigger drop in KE from velocity drop (and assuming similar deceleration, your force) than you do a drop in momentum where p = mv. Simple number examples follow.

KE = 100 * 8 = 6,400, KE = 100 * 6 = 3,600 a ~44% drop in KE.
Whereas p = 100 * 8 = 800, or p = 100 * 6 = 600 a 25% drop in momentum.

Expandables see a quicker decrease in KE since some of that enregy upon initial contact is needed to open the blades. Fixed blades retain their KE better and is why there are more pass through shots seen with fixed blades vs expandables. For anything larger than a turkey or a Key deer, I woudn't recommend expandables. As I said before, spend a few minutes for broadhead tuning.

What amuses me about this thread...

this is an archery forums equivalent to the non stop 9mm vs 45 thread. Always comes up, and always has supporters on each side.

Nah...this is more like Hydra shock vs Glazer safety slug. 2 cam vs solo cam would be a better equivilent to 9 vs 45 I think.










BTW...2 cams can be tuned better.

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Originally Posted by J

I agree with what you are saying, but not your math.

Since F=MA, or KE = MV^2, you get a bigger drop in KE from velocity drop (and assuming similar deceleration, your force) than you do a drop in momentum where p = mv. Simple number examples follow.

KE = 100 * 8 = 6,400, KE = 100 * 6 = 3,600 a ~44% drop in KE.
Whereas p = 100 * 8 = 800, or p = 100 * 6 = 600 a 25% drop in momentum.

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Good but the actual KE=.5(m)(v)^2. But the KE equation does nothing. Both arrow will be (or should be ) flying with the same mass and velocity. Meaning they will have the same KE. The reason theye lose a fraction of speed is opening the blade. Which will effect its momentum which isnt primary based on Velocity. And having change in momentum based on time duration and force needed applied to opening the blades. The change in momentum is still tiny as it takes such a small force to open them over what a millisecond?

I gotta say that my Grim Reaper expanded very well and blew through my antelope at 47 yards this year. The antelope didn't go very far and never did find my arrow [Mad]

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Originally Posted by runninlope

Good but the actual KE=.5(m)(v)^2. But the KE equation does nothing. Both arrow will be (or should be ) flying with the same mass and velocity. Meaning they will have the same KE. The reason theye lose a fraction of speed is opening the blade. Which will effect its momentum which isnt primary based on Velocity. And having change in momentum based on time duration and force needed applied to opening the blades. The change in momentum is still tiny as it takes such a small force to open them over what a millisecond?

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The energy needed to open the blades is signifigant and is easily seen by the lack of exit holes on game, especially if the arrow hits a flat bone like the shoulder. I'll see if I can get Tim Gilliangham to send me some info from tests he did for Gold Tip.

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Originally Posted by runninlope

Good but the actual KE=.5(m)(v)^2.

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Yeah, you are right. Been too many years since engineering school. DiffEQ and convolutions are still with me, the laws of motion are just barely holding on in the back of my brain.

Actual KE is not as much as a factor as how quickly that energy is lost.

I have a great idea.. Someone let me hunt their land and I will shoot a deer,elk,antelope.. Whatever with my mechanical spitfire.. Then you can shoot one with your fix blade and we can see who had more fun... These threads are stupid and yeah they always draw me in because I love spitfires and some of you like your fix blades... I like that there is some archery to talk about on here but how about pictures instead?

My work here is complete. [Poke] [Coffee]

Haha

This was my first year hunting archery, and I went with the G5 Strikers. I tried three other broad-heads including one mechanical, and I have to be honest the Striker flew exactly like field points. Even when there were some cross winds the Kentucky windage I held off was about the same. I could hit a 3" circle on my target every time with them from 50 - 60 yards. At that point mechanicals lost all advantage for me and listening to some of the horror stories that I have heard I just went with the striker. Now if I can just get a shot on an elk I would be pretty happy.

All discussion about KE and passthroughs aside, I think the major reason some people like mechanicals is due to the way they fly. Especially in the wind. That being said, I don't ever use mechanicals.

IMO there is a big difference with how all of the fixed blade broad heads that I've personally used in the past, travel through a crosswind compared to field points. Of course, the effect is less noticeable the faster your bow is and the shorter the range. Additionally, my personal opinion is that FOBs work but I use a whisker biscuit on my hunting bow which means I stick with Blazers.

Shot an old buck last weekend at 30 yards, and sure enough my rage went plum through him. But i did miss the front shoulder and the ribs. Sucks i dont get to sit in my ground blind anymore for another year though lol

ya i just took physics so it seems that all my brain has in it is equations of motion and gravity