Background checks and serial numbers

Before somebody tells me to "google it" or "use the search function" - I did, and found conflicting reports. I want to clarify once and for all from people who know, exactly how much of my personal information is tied to a FFL gun purchase. My questions are as follows:

#1: I understand the gun's serial number is attached to the info sent to CBI, correct? Regardless of what they "unofficially" do, is there a publicly acknowledged database linking that serial to me, beyond the FFL's "bound book"?

#2: Since one background check is good for several guns at the time of purchase, do all the serial numbers need to be attached, or can just one go to CBI?

Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

Before somebody tells me to "google it" or "use the search function" - I did, and found conflicting reports. I want to clarify once and for all from people who know, exactly how much of my personal information is tied to a FFL gun purchase. My questions are as follows:

#1: I understand the gun's serial number is attached to the info sent to CBI, correct? Regardless of what they "unofficially" do, is there a publicly acknowledged database linking that serial to me, beyond the FFL's "bound book"?

NO SERIAL NUMBERS OR MFG OF GUN IS INCLUDED
#2: Since one background check is good for several guns at the time of purchase, do all the serial numbers need to be attached, or can just one go to CBI?

SEE #1 ANSWER





Thanks guys.

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The lack of knowledge/ Paranoia regarding 4473's on this site and others is disgusting.

I just bought a gun and the serial # and model were written down on the 4473 form before it was sent in.

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Originally Posted by Cman

I just bought a gun and the serial # and model were written down on the 4473 form before it was sent in.

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AND????????????? This your 1st 4473??????????

Written Down & given are 2 different things. That info is for the ATF and FFL to be able to
1) Remove firearm from log book
2) Show's ATF the firearm no longer in their inventory has been transferred, LEGALLY to someone.
You do not have a firearm on premises / inventory, you damn sure better have paperwork to show where it went.

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Originally Posted by Cman

I just bought a gun and the serial # and model were written down on the 4473 form before it was sent in.

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Before it was "sent in", sent in to whom?

The info is written on the 4473, but it is not sent to CBI as part of the background check process. I've noticed that most FFL dealers put the firearm info on the form after they have submitted your info to CBI for the background check (used to save time and get the check done sooner, probably not so much now that the time for background checks are measured in days instead of minutes).

Neither CBI nor NICS know what you are buying beyond a generic description: "Handgun", "Long Gun" or "Other/Both"

CBI/NICS get ALL of your personal information (name, DOB, address, DL #, SSAN optional). They get NO specific information on the gun(s) you are buying. They don't know the make, model, SN or any other information other than the generic type of gun. That is ONLY recorded on the 4473 and in the dealer's bound book.

The only time that info is shared is if the BATFE needs a trace on a particular gun or if the compliance inspector makes a note of it during an inspection of the FFL premises. The other way would be if the FFL goes out of business and sends his records in to the BATFE Out of Business center.

You can start your BGC before your item arrives, as long as the FFL knows what you are getting.

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Originally Posted by kwando

You can start your BGC before your item arrives, as long as the FFL knows what you are getting.

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No you cannot. The item Must be On site and logged in prior to CBI Call in. You have an ATF SURPRISE audit while in the waiting process and Say Goodbye FFL.
So FFL X where exactly is this Firearm you are selling Mr. Kwando? Not in inventory, OOPS!
If that were the case i'd have 4 4473's in process now. How can you submit w/out info. Considering the approval might just be completed before said gun arrived?

Thank you Jim, that's all I needed to know. Now I can happily add myself to the panic-buying 10 day queue for my lil bolt-action assault weapon of mass destruction. :-)

I believe the instant check info sent will tell type of weapon such as pistol, rifle shotgun or other (receiver). I could be wrong on that. No serial #.

The form you fill out will have the serial number, make & such along with your name and address. If the ATF does a trace they start at the top with the manufacturer or importer and work their way to the FFL. If private sales are banned there will be a paper trail all the way.

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Originally Posted by jim

No you cannot. The item Must be On site and logged in prior to CBI Call in. You have an ATF SURPRISE audit while in the waiting process and Say Goodbye FFL.
So FFL X where exactly is this Firearm you are selling Mr. Kwando? Not in inventory, OOPS!
If that were the case i'd have 4 4473's in process now. How can you submit w/out info. Considering the approval might just be completed before said gun arrived?

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Well the place i use must be breaking the law, because I've done it before.

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Originally Posted by kwando

Well the place i use must be breaking the law, because I've done it before.

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I was just going to say- I've seen people doing this a lot lately- Internet order, FFL transfer, not arrived yet, but to hasten the process they are getting their checks done prior to the transfer's arrival.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

The only time that info is shared is if the BATFE needs a trace on a particular gun or if the compliance inspector makes a note of it during an inspection of the FFL premises. The other way would be if the FFL goes out of business and sends his records in to the BATFE Out of Business center.

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Where it is promptly scanned, indexed, and compared. Our tax dollars pay for someone to sit in front of a computer, looking at scanned pages from A&D books, trying to decipher someone's handwriting.

Upon recieving:
1. The date of receipt of the firearm;
2. The name and address of the non-licensee or the name and FFL license number of the licensee from whom you received the firearm;
3. The name of the manufacturer and importer (if any) of the firearm;
4. The model of the firearm;
5. The serial number of the firearm;
6. The type of firearm (pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame, etc); and
7. The caliber or gauge of the firearm.


Upon selling or otherwise disposing of:
1. The date of sale or other disposition of the firearm;
2. The name and address of the non-licensee or the name and FFL license number of the licensee to whom the firearm was transferred.


So if your going to use an FFL -- use someone big that is going to stay in business for a long while and don't buy multiple guns in a 5 day period (see info on MSR 3310.4 in post below). Note that only helps some as the ATF can request records at any time - and routinely do for investigations.

When the Dougherty trio did their little cross country crime spree that started in FL and ended on I-25 in Colorado, authorities very conveniently knew exactly what guns they had with them before they were caught. Things that make you go hmmm.........

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Originally Posted by Dingo

#1: I understand the gun's serial number is attached to the info sent to CBI, correct?

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No. As Jim said neither the SN or Manf is sent to the ATF/FBI. When you do your 4473. Just "Long Gun", "Handgun", or "Other".

UNLESS you are multiple purchaser then the FFL has to do a 3310.4 (Multiple Sales Report). ALL 3310.4s are in the FTS - DIRECTLY LINKING YOU WITH THE GUNs. The 3310.4 requires the FFL to report Type, SN, Manf, Model, Importer, Caliber, and Transfer Date -- along with all your pertinent info.

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Originally Posted by Dingo

Regardless of what they "unofficially" do, is there a publicly acknowledged database linking that serial to me, beyond the FFL's "bound book"?

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The FTS is publicly acknowledged. The NTC has a nice building on the Martinsburg, WV ranch/campus

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Originally Posted by asmotao

Where it is promptly scanned, indexed, and compared...

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Promptly? I'm not so sure about that. I received a trace request from the BATFE 3 YEARS, and at least 2 trace requests 2 years, after I closed my business and sent in my records. I've was told the backlog of records to be entered was several years long.

During one of the trace requests I told the person calling that I'd sent my records in over 2 years earlier. She kinda laughed and said, "So much for this trace." It's not that I don't think the gov't would maintain a database or even wants to maintain a database. I'm just not so sure they can actually keep up with it.

I sort of envision a warehouse along the lines of the one in the Indiana Jones movie where they stored the Ark.

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Originally Posted by Bailey Guns

I sort of envision a warehouse along the lines of the one in the Indiana Jones movie where they stored the Ark.

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Actually its long lines of stacked record boxes filling conference rooms and down halls -- with a converted garage serving as a holding area.

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Originally Posted by hatidua

When the Dougherty trio did their little cross country crime spree that started in FL and ended on I-25 in Colorado, authorities very conveniently knew exactly what guns they had with them before they were caught. Things that make you go hmmm.........

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As one who was involved in that investigation, I can tell you we knew what kind of guns they had because the youngest told his probation officer about them after he pled guilty to his case in Florida, just prior to their spree. Not to mention the video from the bank, which also showed some of the firearms and recovered casings, the in-car video from the officer in Florida who was shot at and the casings recovered in that event.

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Originally Posted by jim

No you cannot. The item Must be On site and logged in prior to CBI Call in. You have an ATF SURPRISE audit while in the waiting process and Say Goodbye FFL.
So FFL X where exactly is this Firearm you are selling Mr. Kwando? Not in inventory, OOPS!
If that were the case i'd have 4 4473's in process now. How can you submit w/out info. Considering the approval might just be completed before said gun arrived?

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Glad you brought this up. Called the CBI and discussed putting in the info (BGC) without the client being here and signing the form. Figured it would save time if I could do this and keep the client from coming twice. He said I need to wait until the form was signed and info verified (ID or other) with the guy onsite. Went on about prosecution etc. Ok got that, will do when guy comes in, no prob.

However he never said I needed the gun onsite. I always have the gun onsite and then do BGC and have form 4473 signed and info verified, but here is the question; were does it say I need to have the gun onsite to run the BGC? I know I need it to complete the transfer, I am not doubting it is there, but would like the source.

Thanks Jim,

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Originally Posted by 10mm-man

Glad you brought this up. Called the CBI and discussed putting in the info (BGC) without the client being here and signing the form. Figured it would save time if I could do this and keep the client from coming twice. He said I need to wait until the form was signed and info verified (ID or other) with the guy onsite. Went on about prosecution etc. Ok got that, will do when guy comes in, no prob.

However he never said I needed the gun onsite. I always have the gun onsite and then do BGC and have form 4473 signed and info verified, but here is the question; were does it say I need to have the gun onsite to run the BGC? I know I need it to complete the transfer, I am not doubting it is there, but would like the source.

Thanks Jim,

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The ffl's i deal with have said No firearm to put info on 4473 no BG call in. That has been for everyone i have dealt with. I am sure some do what they feel is necessary, however if i was an FFL the "risk" based upon multiple interpretations of the law, by 2-3 LE's in the same room, is not worth the time.

I used to use a guy who had a home FFL business. I was a pretty frequent user of his services, with a delivery once a week or so. For the first year of using him, he would have already run my BGC prior to getting the item in (he would do so when he shipped his FFL to the seller) and when he called me to say the item was in, I could literally run right over and pick it up and leave. Then there was a change he became aware of and I needed to wait until the item actually was at his house before he could run the BGC, which delayed my getting the item by a day or so.

I can't find any reference to actually having the gun onsite/logged in, either. Closest I can find in the FAQ section of the ATF website talks about conducting a BGC prior to picking up a firearm (ie: customer orders custom gun...make sure the gun will be ready within 30 days of completing BGC or another will have to be completed).

I always did it that way, too. But I can't find where it says you have to.

:confused:

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Originally Posted by jim

The ffl's i deal with have said No firearm to put info on 4473 no BG call in. That has been for everyone i have dealt with. I am sure some do what they feel is necessary, however if i was an FFL the "risk" based upon multiple interpretations of the law, by 2-3 LE's in the same room, is not worth the time.

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I hear ya Jim, before I got my FFL and bought guns at other places, they said I had to pick the gun out and then they would run it. Nowhere on the form (Prior to BGC) and the Insta check does it ask for a gun SN. This leads me to believe i can run a BGC but not complete a transfer until it comes back "proceed" and i have logged the gun in and out.

I however, do always have the gun in hand, logged and all paperwork completed. I follow the established set of rules, like other FFL's do it, but if I could do another way, save time and be compliant with the law, I would like to do it. You know a lot and that is why I asked for the source; you have officially lost the title of "Master know it All!"

Thanks,



EDIT: on the phone with CBI, lets see if they know.

UPDATE: OK, so CBI said; you can run the BGC with out the gun being onsite if: you know the Make, Model and SN and it is on the form 4473. The NICS # is only good for that/those guns on the form. If you do not know the Make, Model, SN you can not run it. If you get another gun in after that NICS# is assigned you need to run it again and another 4473 filled out as it is only good for that transaction. from their lips to my ear, would be nice to have written info but it makes sense.


I guess that makes you right JIM- tittle is reinstated.

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Originally Posted by kwando

You can start your BGC before your item arrives, as long as the FFL knows what you are getting.

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Nevermind... Didnt read the rest of the thread.

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Originally Posted by hatidua

When the Dougherty trio did their little cross country crime spree that started in FL and ended on I-25 in Colorado, authorities very conveniently knew exactly what guns they had with them before they were caught. Things that make you go hmmm.........

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FYI: <11 hours to trace the Florida shooter's firearms. From shooting to BATFE reporting.