SHTF and Mag changes

So I was sitting at the welding table today, welding away and thinking! Always a good time for thoughts.

So.....

We (we is generally speaking as shooters) practice our mag changes as fast as we can, technical, but fast. Strip mags out for malfuctions, practice for competition, etc.

How often do we practice retaining our mags? Tac reload. If we are in a SHTF scenario, and we only have 6 mags to our person (or you can only take X amount with you), are we going to just pitch them on the ground and keep running????? What about your side arm?? I have 3, yes 3 mags for my M&P. If thats my go to side arm for SHTF (based on ammo supply WSHTF), should I be be practicing tac reloads more and learning to retain my mags???

All hypothetical!! Just throwing it out there! GO!

Would have posted in training, but just this is a hypothetical though, not tech!

I have a Roll-up pouch on my chest rig for mag recovery, supposedly holds 6 mags. Haven't tested it out yet.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...FL._SX342_.jpg

I also run a dump pouch, on my war belt. It runs super clean.

So when you guys run mag changes, you always take it out of the firearm and directly into the punch??

Cause I run a Rolliepollie (SP) too, but its just for range clean up.

Just asking!

Only retain mags if they have not been emptied. Do some IDPA , 3 gun and what ever they offer up @ Owl canyon. The 3 gun @ wcfw is open to all and you can go out, watch or participate.
http://www.wcfw.org/3_gun/3_gun.html

I've done both retaining empties and dump them.

If you're doing an emergency reload dump the mag on the ground and worry about collecting them if you live.

If you're doing administrative reloads retain them

Rolly polley on my left side also

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Originally Posted by jim

Only retain mags if they have not been emptied. Do some IDPA , 3 gun and what ever they offer up @ Owl canyon. The 3 gun @ wcfw is open to all and you can go out, watch or participate.
http://www.wcfw.org/3_gun/3_gun.html

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Yup. I get that. But.....

I'm asking "one second after", "lights out" senecio.

You gotta walk from point A to point B with "x" amount of mags for the rest of your life.

Do you practice retain?? As mentioned, hypothetical SHTF.

Just a thought, but if you are in a firefight, you change mags either when you can, or when you have to.

If you are changing "when you can" i.e. you are behind cover and you are about to move, then you retain the mag you are swapping out.

If you are changing because you have to, i.e. you are moving and run dry, then you drop it and keep moving.

If you survive the firefight and are not forced to leave the area, then you can always go scrounge your empties and any other empties that might be available. If you survive the firefight and are forced to leave the area, then what you dropped is probably not worth going back for. If you didn't survive the firefight, someone else will be scrounging off of you. Make the bastards look all over for whatever you dropped [Coffee]

As a rule, we practice both, tactical reloads and emergency reloads. This is done with every weapon, from shotguns to rifles, and pistols.

Be safe.

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Originally Posted by cstone

Just a thought, but if you are in a firefight, you change mags either when you can, or when you have to.

If you are changing "when you can" i.e. you are behind cover and you are about to move, then you retain the mag you are swapping out.

If you are changing because you have to, i.e. you are moving and run dry, then you drop it and keep moving.

If you survive the firefight and are not forced to leave the area, then you can always go scrounge your empties and any other empties that might be available. If you survive the firefight and are forced to leave the area, then what you dropped is probably not worth going back for. If you didn't survive the firefight, someone else will be scrounging off of you. Make the bastards look all over for whatever you dropped [Coffee]

As a rule, we practice both, tactical reloads and emergency reloads. This is done with every weapon, from shotguns to rifles, and pistols.

Be safe.

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Thanks Cstone! That's what I'm looking for.
As always you have a great insight.

So, as a civilian, would this be a realistic thought process?
Should I go back and scrounge, or should I keep moving??
Do M&P train to scrounge??
I ask cause I don't know.

In the next 10yrs I'm moving with 2 pre-teens........ And a wife!!

I think we need to practice both situations. Never know what you will run into..

If you don't scrounge, someone else will.

I am a packrat. I pick up just about anything if it looks like something I could use. A few times every year I have to go through the house and get rid of stuff I don't need or haven't used. This is the only thing that keeps me from becoming a hoarder. [LOL]

If I was mobile, weight and space would be limiting factors. One of the things I miss about sailing is how it forces you to appreciate the value of simplicity and economy of everything on board.

The government couldn't teach scrounging. By definition government is the source of wastefulness. I don't believe it is possible to truly appreciate anything you haven't worked for and government doesn't create anything other than laws and dependents.

Some individuals both in the mil and LE just have a natural talent for scrounging and trading. They are valuable skills that can make you friends as well as enemies.

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Originally Posted by cstone

If you don't scrounge, someone else will.

I am a packrat. I pick up just about anything if it looks like something I could use. A few times every year I have to go through the house and get rid of stuff I don't need or haven't used. This is the only thing that keeps me from becoming a hoarder. [LOL]

If I was mobile, weight and space would be limiting factors. One of the things I miss about sailing is how it forces you to appreciate the value of simplicity and economy of everything on board.

The government couldn't teach scrounging. By definition government is the source of wastefulness. I don't believe it is possible to truly appreciate anything you haven't worked for and government doesn't create anything other than laws and dependents.

Some individuals both in the mil and LE just have a natural talent for scrounging and trading. They are valuable skills that can make you friends as well as enemies.

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You know people like that?

I would do both,Or as i call it shoot & loot. The rest is for off line discussion.

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Originally Posted by jim

You know people like that?

I would do both,Or as i call it shoot & loot. The rest is for off line discussion.

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No one comes to mind. At least no one I would like to put a label on [Beer]

Practice both!!

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Some individuals both in the mil and LE just have a natural talent for scrounging and trading. They are valuable skills that can make you friends as well as enemies.

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I have a sign by my "area" at work that says "Sanford and Son Junkyard". I try and impart my um, skills on some of the young soldiers of today. [LOL]

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Originally Posted by jerrymrc

I have a sign by my "area" at work that says "Sanford and Son Junkyard". I try and impart my um, skills on some of the young soldiers of today. [LOL]

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I once knew a guy whose philosophy was, "It ain't stealing if no one else is going to use it." He was a great resource for hard to find things, but I tried not to use him unless it was an absolute necessity. I would never ask where anything came from. At least in the military you knew that almost everything was being paid for by the taxpayers and you were using it to accomplish a mission. I'm not sure whether that justification compromised my ethics, but in the end, the mission always comes first.

I don't know if I have ever lived in a black and white world, but I can say that at least for the last forty years, my world has been various shades of gray. Way more than 50 shades [Coffee]

The first time I was sent to Supply on a working party, the orders from my squad leader included the phrase "and you better come back with something the squad can use too."

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Originally Posted by Tinelement

Do M&P train to scrounge??
I ask cause I don't know.

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I can't speak to the police but I'll throw some food for thought into the discussion for post-engagement TTPs (Tactics, Techniques and Procedures).

In general there are three different categories for an AO (Area of Operations).

Permissive - Host Gov't Military/Police control with support readily available (think police operating in their cities US).

Semi-permissive - Host Gov't doesn't have total control and can't effectively support operations but isn't hostile to your presence (think Iraq/Afghanistan post-invasion).

Non-permissive - Host Gov't has effective control of the AO and actively opposes operations (think Iraq/Afghanistan during pre-invasion reconnaissance or during the invasion).

Now, to extend this thinking to a SHTF situation, replace "host government" with "whoever happens to control the area". If that's you and yours, then post fight TTPs should include site exploitation.

That means policing up everything that might be useful and can be transported back to your base of operations. Intelligence, weapons, ammo, food, fuel, vehicles, etc. It's all going to depend on the security situation in the area (and therefore the amount of time you can spend in one spot after making a lot of noise) and your capability to transport whatever it is.

At the other end of the spectrum would be an engagement in a hostile area. In that case the fight would be more of a break contact and any magazines that get emptied are left where they fall. There are no pieces of equipment (normally) that are worth your life.

The old saying "to the victor go the spoils" is just as true now as it was when it was first said (although there is a good deal less rape and pillage now..). If you hold the ground at the end of the fight, and you have the bodies and weapons to keep it, you can police up whatever you want. If you don't, you can't.

A few years ago I had a conversation with a former Delta operator. He said during the Black Hawk Down incident everyone was dropping their mags. It created a problem when the did an ammo drop during the night. His advise was to retain your mags if you can.

YMMV

Mike

Gonna attach my pouch to my gear next time out and start working on retaining my empty mags.

Thanks for all the input Gents!

I also use a dump pouch that attaches to my belt. Simple, durable and utilitarian. Just practice drop mag from rifle, deposit in pouch, grab full mag on way up and load. Muscle memory. If such situation arises where I have to put this to real-world use, I may not be too keen about hanging around and scrounging any longer than necessary. If all my mags are accounted for, I can quickly take what i can off the OPFOR and get out of the area in case he has friends or the ruckus attracts others. Get off the X ASAP.

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Originally Posted by MAP

A few years ago I had a conversation with a former Delta operator. He said during the Black Hawk Down incident everyone was dropping their mags. It created a problem when the did an ammo drop during the night. His advise was to retain your mags if you can.

YMMV

Mike

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The ammo that was dropped to them was cases of 5.56 dropped in by the 160th guys. Not having their old mags meant they didn't have anything to load the ammo into. If SHTF I wouldn't expect resupply speedballs via helo.... But if you have that kind of capability... can we be friends?

If you are really worried-

maxpedition tactical gear retractor through a magpul plate on all mags. Press mag release and magazine zips right to your hip where it dangles until retrieved again. Retractor allows easy detachment. I'm sure it's been done somewhere...

otherwise, drop the mag and maybe live a couple seconds longer because you weren't killed while fumbling with a dump pouch or trying to pocket a mag.

When I shoot idpa I have a dedicated type of pants with pockets conducive to retention and tac reloads. With practice it can be done while only adding 1-2 tenths of a second over emergency/slide lock reload.

I'm thinking ranger plates with paracord for your rifle, and duct tape with paracord for pistol mags. Tie them to a carabiner. Attach to belt.

While I've never tried leashing mags. I have used pistol lanyards. They hang up on everything.

The obvious answer is that you should sew several rare earth magnets into the lining of your pants at the thigh, knee, and shin, along with your boots. Then, use only metal mags, and do mag changes while standing on one foot like a flamingo, or while walking with exaggerated high steps. With three full rings around each leg, retaining your mags, car keys, and edc carry knife will never again be an issue. Might also help your circulation and give you that extra boost of energy you need to win the fight.

Might need to switch to a compass that isn't affected by magnets though. Good luck!