Trusts and the New Anti-Gun Laws

The primary use for the Trusts I create is for holding NFA-regulated items. Most people use them for suppressors. A few use them for SBR’s and even fewer use them for fully-automatic weapons.

With Colorado’s latest round of anti-gun legislation, the question of placing non-NFA-regulated items in the Trust keeps coming up. As with most legal questions, it’s tough to come up with an answer to post on a bulletin board that will survive scrutiny and be accurate and applicable to the majority of folks who read the post.

A couple of weeks ago, I put together a very detailed analysis of the “large” capacity mag legislation and the universal background check legislation. Between the 2 documents, I used up a little over 13 pages. Rather than publishing them immediately, I put them aside with plans to re-read and edit them before posting them on this site.

This brings me to today’s post. I’ve decided NOT to post the long analysis because it can still be parsed--the analysis can’t be applied to every situation which leaves me open to significant liability when someone takes a particular comment out of context or fails to realize that their particular set of facts changes the analysis completely.

So... What I’ve decided to do is publish this relatively shorter analysis and then answer questions as best I can.

Question 1: Should I place non-NFA-regulated firearms in a Trust to avoid the provisions of HB 13-1229.

My answer: NO.

Question 2: Should I place “large” capacity magazines in a Trust to avoid the provisions of HB 13-1224.

My answer: Probably.

My thought process on each answer:

Universal Background Checks

Loss of Exemptions

Most transactions people would hope to accomplish by using a Trust are already exempt from the background check requirement as the law currently stands. Putting the gun in a Trust might actually cause you to lose access to a few of the exemptions. Specifically, a Trust does not have immediate family members. Many of the exemptions allow transfers (temporary or permanent) to immediate family members.

Multiple Background Checks

For firearms held in a Trust, the law requires background checks for all people who are legally authorized to take possession of the firearm on behalf of the Trust. For the Trusts I create, this would include all present-day Trustees as well as any present-day co-Trustees. This would not include future Beneficiaries or backup Trustees until they actually have rights to possess the Trust’s assets. (i.e., when you die.)

This background check on Trustees is also an example of losing an exemption. Under the law, if you pass on a regular firearm through your will or in a Trust created WITHIN your will, the recipient is exempt from needing a background check. The Trusts I create are created present-day, NOT within your Will. If you’re interested, the generic legal term for a Trust created while you’re alive is “inter-vivos Trust.” The technical term for a Trust created within a will is a “Testamentary Trust.” In normal estate planning work, I frequently make provisions for a Testamentary Trust within the Will to take care of minor children.

“Large” Capacity Mags

As the law is written, you can’t buy or sell “large” capacity magazines after July 1, 2013. You can continue to possess this “large” capacity mags after July 1, 2013 so long as you’ve owned and maintained continuous possession of the magazine since prior to July 1, 2013.

We’ve all read the discussions re: what is meant by “continuous possession.” We all have our own ideas of what this means, but we really won’t know for sure until someone is prosecuted for failing to shower with their Magpul 30-rounder.

The reason I say you should “probably” put your “large” capacity mags into a Trust is this:

(1) When property is placed in a Trust, the Trust then OWNS the property.

(2) Current Trustees have authority to possess assets of the Trust.

(3) When the Trust is first created, YOU are the only current Trustee. You can add co-Trustees at any time. Any co-Trustee you add can possess the items of the Trust.

(4) When you die, whoever is named as backup Trustee is then assigned the task of managing the assets of the Trust. This includes taking possession of the Trust’s assets. OWNERSHIP of the Trust does not change. A TRANSFER has NOT occurred.

(5) In the Trusts I create, the backup Trustee has the option of terminating the Trust or continuing the Trust. If the Trust is continued, the Trustee can name co-Trustees and can name backup Trustees. This process can continue forever and a Transfer of ownership has not occurred.

(6) Continuing this logic, your unborn grandchildren could possess a “Large” capacity magazine in the year 2050 by acting as a Trustee to a Trust you created in 2013 because the TRUST has maintained continuous ownership and possession of the “large” capacity magazines since before July 1, 2013.

As others have pointed out, because magazines do not have serial numbers, it will be somewhere between difficult and impossible for government prosecutors to prove when you purchased any particular magazine. The problem would arise when your grandchild born in 2014 is found to be in possession of a large capacity magazine in 2035. There is no way this grandchild could have owned the magazine before July 1, 2013. Without a Trust, the only way a child born in 2014 could legally possess a “large” capacity magazine in 2035 is as a Trustee for a Trust created and funded prior to July 1, 2013.

As we’ve all said, both these laws have significant deficiencies in the form of unclear and unenforceable terms. If we continue on our current path, I fully expect our government leaders will begin to take away exemptions provided in the laws as the opportunity to do so presents itself. I also expect that any litigation concerning the legislation will be decided in favor of further restrictions.

Please don’t interpret anything I’ve said as encouraging anyone to break any laws. Please also don’t consider the above opinions as legal advice for your particular situation. The only way I can give legal advice is by first knowing your exact legal circumstances.

Rod

Thanks for the break down!

So.. What would your recommendation be for actually going about placing the magazines in the trust? Just a memo/Bill-of-Sale? Notarized? Specific descriptions (colors, manf, capacity)? Lower capacity magazines too?

+1 on the above by asmo.

I've prepared a form to transfer items to the Trust. For things that don't have serial numbers (most mags), just be as descriptive as possible...

15 ea. 30 round capacity Magpul Gen III 5.56 magazines in black with no window

I'd be happy to share this form with anyone who wants it--whether you're a client of mine or not. I don't have time to post it to my Dropbox account right now, but I'll do it soon and will make a follow up post with a url when it's available. I'm planning to email it to all my clients in the near future along with a couple of other new forms that might help with the Form 1/4 process, too.

Rod

Rob you just created my trust (Simon), can you email me the doc? I can host it on my dropbox if you would like.

I promised a generic form to transfer assets to a Trust. I've posted it in my Dropbox account and anyone can view/download it by clicking on the following link.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zy5txnwb9o...ust%20v2.0.doc

I use a Mac, and Apple's word processing software, "Pages." Since most of the world uses Microsoft Word for word processing, I converted the document to Word format. I hope it's usable for all. I could have just posted a PDF, but that'd be a little clumsy to fill in the blanks for something like this.

Hope you all find it useful.

Rod

Thx Rod!!

Thanks for providing a hint of clarity for this confusing (garbage) legislation.

Thanks Rod. A few quick questions. So does this need to be notarized or anything like that? Can I draft this document and it be legal? If not, what's the process to make a legal trust?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viper45

Thanks Rod. A few quick questions. So does this need to be notarized or anything like that? Can I draft this document and it be legal? If not, what's the process to make a legal trust?

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Holy Smokes!

Folks I present Exhibit A as to why lawyers are reluctant to post on forums.

Viper45, this isn't meant as a slam on you AT ALL, but it's a good example of how things can be misunderdstood.

The document I posted a link to isn't for forming a Trust. It's for transferring items to a Trust if a Trust already exists. I charge $300 to create a gun trust. More information on the process is available by sending an email to the address listed in my signature line, below.

In answer to the notary question: No. The transfer form does not need to be notarized.

Rod

Great synopsis and sage advice as always Rod.

Would you care to comment on the effect a repeal of the mag limit may have on mags placed in the trust?

If you think an email response or call is more appropriate, please let me know.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NFATrustGuy

Holy Smokes!

Folks I present Exhibit A as to why lawyers are reluctant to post on forums.

Viper45, this isn't meant as a slam on you AT ALL, but it's a good example of how things can be misunderdstood.

The document I posted a link to isn't for forming a Trust. It's for transferring items to a Trust if a Trust already exists. I charge $300 to create a gun trust. More information on the process is available by sending an email to the address listed in my signature line, below.

In answer to the notary question: No. The transfer form does not need to be notarized.

Rod

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Please don't let my comments discourage you or anyone else from pointing many of us in the right direction. I view topics like this not as 100% legal advice that will hold up in court, but as a nudge in the right direction before seeking further counsel.

You said yourself that this was a summary of a 13 page analysis, and since I don't know much about trusts, I figured I should ask for clarification to my questions. In hindsight, a PM might have been warranted (then obviously followed with a f2f meeting), but I digress. Regardless, thanks for taking the time to write this (and to set me straight); honestly didn't mean to make any waves here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brutal

Great synopsis and sage advice as always Rod.

Would you care to comment on the effect a repeal of the mag limit may have on mags placed in the trust?

If you think an email response or call is more appropriate, please let me know.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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If appealed or no longer a law. Either keep them in or dump them from the trust ,Just My $2 sheckels

Here's a very good question I received via email:

One question I have that I haven’t seen a definitive answer for is if suppressors are considered ‘firearms’ as far as the multiple background checks for trustee and co-trustees is concerned.

My answer: NO.

The new law will be added to CRS 18-12-101 through [now] 111. Title 18, Section 12, Part 101 lists definitions of about a dozen specific terms. It specifically defines things like "firearm silencer." "handgun," "machine gun," "short rifle," "short shotgun," etc. It DOES NOT define "firearm."

To find the definition of "firearm" we have to look at 18-1-901 which gives a definition of "firearm" and further states that this definition is applicable to other Sections under Title 18. The new law is a section under Title 18 so this definition is applicable. The definition is... drum roll, please...

C.R.S. 18-1-901(3)(h)

"Firearm" means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges, or other explosive charges.

With regard to Trusts and Trustees, the new law requires:

"(b) AS USED IN THIS SECTION, UNLESS THE CONTEXT REQUIRESOTHERWISE, "TRANSFEREE" MEANS A PERSON WHO DESIRES TO RECEIVE ORACQUIRE A FIREARM FROM A TRANSFEROR. IF A TRANSFEREE IS NOT ANATURAL PERSON, THEN EACH NATURAL PERSON WHO IS AUTHORIZED BYTHE TRANSFEREE TO POSSESS THE FIREARM AFTER THE TRANSFER SHALLUNDERGO A BACKGROUND CHECK, AS DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH (a) OF THISSUBSECTION (1), BEFORE TAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM. "

Nowhere in any part of the new legislation do our legislators change the definition of "firearm" from the default provided by 18-1-901(3)(h) as I quoted, above, so NO, a suppressor is not a firearm.

My disclaimer: This is my analysis of the law as it stands today. Reasonable people can have different interpretations of the law. This is usually where lawsuits come into play. If the government charges you, me or anyone else with a crime because the government has an interpretation of the law different from mine, this is where you either spend tons of time defending yourself or spend tons of money hiring a lawyer to defend you and promote the interpretation of the law that you believe. I make no guarantees that the government's interpretation of this law is the same as my interpretation. I will NOT provide you with a free defense based on the free opinion I gave on this internet forum. The only truly safe answer any lawyer can ever give is "it depends." i think this is a copout and that's why I'm offering my opinion on this as someone who has more knowledge than most of the population re: legal issues. WHAT I DON'T POSSESS, HOWEVER, is the ability to read minds--the minds of the jurors and the judges who will ultimately interpret what these laws mean. Without this ability to read minds, there's no way I can tell you for certain that my interpretation will prevail in a courtroom.

I really hope you all can understand where I'm coming from... I'd like to help out, but I'm not willing to get strung up for sticking my nose out.

RE: a repeal of the "large" capacity mag law...

Jim's pretty much nailed it. Leave them in the Trust or take them out. It doesn't much matter. If you decide to take them out of the Trust I'd suggest some sort of Bill of Sale or gift letter just to provide a paper trail for your backup Trustees so they won't be looking for the mags in your pile of Trust assets after you're dead. There would be no legal requirement for a Bill of Sale or gift letter, it'd just be a matter of courtesy for your backup Trustees.

Rod

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NFATrustGuy

Here's a very good question I received via email:

One question I have that I haven’t seen a definitive answer for is if suppressors are considered ‘firearms’ as far as the multiple background checks for trustee and co-trustees is concerned.

My answer: NO.

The new law will be added to CRS 18-12-101 through [now] 111. Title 18, Section 12, Part 101 lists definitions of about a dozen specific terms. It specifically defines things like "firearm silencer." "handgun," "machine gun," "short rifle," "short shotgun," etc. It DOES NOT define "firearm."

To find the definition of "firearm" we have to look at 18-1-901 which gives a definition of "firearm" and further states that this definition is applicable to other Sections under Title 18. The new law is a section under Title 18 so this definition is applicable. The definition is... drum roll, please...

C.R.S. 18-1-901(3)(h)

"Firearm" means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges, or other explosive charges.

With regard to Trusts and Trustees, the new law requires:

"(b) AS USED IN THIS SECTION, UNLESS THE CONTEXT REQUIRESOTHERWISE, "TRANSFEREE" MEANS A PERSON WHO DESIRES TO RECEIVE ORACQUIRE A FIREARM FROM A TRANSFEROR. IF A TRANSFEREE IS NOT ANATURAL PERSON, THEN EACH NATURAL PERSON WHO IS AUTHORIZED BYTHE TRANSFEREE TO POSSESS THE FIREARM AFTER THE TRANSFER SHALLUNDERGO A BACKGROUND CHECK, AS DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH (a) OF THISSUBSECTION (1), BEFORE TAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM. "

Nowhere in any part of the new legislation do our legislators change the definition of "firearm" from the default provided by 18-1-901(3)(h) as I quoted, above, so NO, a suppressor is not a firearm.

My disclaimer: This is my analysis of the law as it stands today. Reasonable people can have different interpretations of the law. This is usually where lawsuits come into play. If the government charges you, me or anyone else with a crime because the government has an interpretation of the law different from mine, this is where you either spend tons of time defending yourself or spend tons of money hiring a lawyer to defend you and promote the interpretation of the law that you believe. I make no guarantees that the government's interpretation of this law is the same as my interpretation. I will NOT provide you with a free defense based on the free opinion I gave on this internet forum. The only truly safe answer any lawyer can ever give is "it depends." i think this is a copout and that's why I'm offering my opinion on this as someone who has more knowledge than most of the population re: legal issues. WHAT I DON'T POSSESS, HOWEVER, is the ability to read minds--the minds of the jurors and the judges who will ultimately interpret what these laws mean. Without this ability to read minds, there's no way I can tell you for certain that my interpretation will prevail in a courtroom.

I really hope you all can understand where I'm coming from... I'd like to help out, but I'm not willing to get strung up for sticking my nose out.

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But your Honor the guy who said he was an attorney on some web site said IT WAS LEGAL .

Been there.

Here's another question I recently received via email:

If a new co-trustee is added and there are firearms in the trust does that person need to do a background check before being added to the trust?

My answer: MAYBE.

As mentioned in my posting above, the new HB13-1229 requires background checks for all people who are authorized to possess the transferred firearm before they are allowed to possess the item. In a Trust, any present-day Trustee has the authority to possess the assets of the Trust. Notice that I said 'PRESENT DAY TRUSTEE.' This means that BACKUP Trustees--those that assume the role of Trustee after you die--don't need a background check until after you die and they become the acting Trustee.

For my Trusts, you can add a co-Trustee at any time HOWEVER the new co-Trustee would need a background check before you allow them to take possession of any firearms held in the Trust UNLESS they are eligible for an exemption.

As I mentioned in Post #1 to this thread, Trusts lose a few of the exemptions offered by the new [terrible] law because Trusts don't have an "immediate family." But they don't lose ALL the exemptions. Specifically, a Trust would still be eligible for the following exemptions:

1. Antiques
2. Temporary transfer in someone's home
3. Temporary transfer at a shooting range
4. Temporary transfer at a shooting competition
5. Temporary transfer while hunting, fishing, trapping or target shooting
*6. Temporary transfer while in the continuous presence of the owner
7. Temporary transfer for less than 72 hours

I've obviously shortened the description of all these exemptions. If you're planning on relying on a specific exemption, it'd be best to look up the full text of the law which can be found now at HB13-1229 and after July 1, 2013 at CRS 18-12-112.

* I starred #6 because I think this requires further discussion. My interpretation of this would be that the new co-Trustee is in the presence of the primary Trustee who is legal to possess the Trust's firearms because he is either grandfathered because he was Trustee before July 1, 2013 or if he became a Trustee after July 1, 2013, he had a background check when the Trust purchased the firearm.

My disclaimer: This is my analysis of the law as it stands today. Reasonable people can have different interpretations of the law. This is usually where lawsuits come into play. If the government charges you, me or anyone else with a crime because the government has an interpretation of the law different from mine, this is where you either spend tons of time defending yourself or spend tons of money hiring a lawyer to defend you and promote the interpretation of the law that you believe. I make no guarantees that the government's interpretation of this law is the same as my interpretation. I will NOT provide you with a free defense based on the free opinion I gave on this internet forum. The only truly safe answer any lawyer can ever give is "it depends." i think this is a copout and that's why I'm offering my opinion on this as someone who has more knowledge than most of the population re: legal issues. WHAT I DON'T POSSESS, HOWEVER, is the ability to read minds--the minds of the jurors and the judges who will ultimately interpret what these laws mean. Without this ability to read minds, there's no way I can tell you for certain that my interpretation will prevail in a courtroom.

I really hope you all can understand where I'm coming from... I'd like to help out, but I'm not willing to get strung up for sticking my nose out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viper45

Please don't let my comments discourage you or anyone else from pointing many of us in the right direction. I view topics like this not as 100% legal advice that will hold up in court, but as a nudge in the right direction before seeking further counsel.

You said yourself that this was a summary of a 13 page analysis, and since I don't know much about trusts, I figured I should ask for clarification to my questions. In hindsight, a PM might have been warranted (then obviously followed with a f2f meeting), but I digress. Regardless, thanks for taking the time to write this (and to set me straight); honestly didn't mean to make any waves here.

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No worries, man. We're all good. Keep posting if you've got questions. I'll do my best to answer.

Rod

With all due respect for NFATrustGuy and the rest of the people people discussing things here...

I have been following this thread with great interest. I have great respect for the people here. But everything that has been discussed here is all speculation. I don't believe you can use normal legal reasoning when dealing with these laws. There was a press release the afternoon that hick signed the gun laws that said that hick had directed the appropriate office to study the new laws and come up with a set of guidelines on how the laws were going to be enforced. He said they would be out by July 1st. I wouldn't trust any goofball liberal staffer or lawyer to have interpret the legislation as it is written. They are going to interpret it the way they want regardless of what it actually says. Under normal circumstances those guidelines would have been released within days of the signing. I can't help but think they are not going to release any details until it's to late to properly prepare.

And yes my tin foil hat is firmly in place. The last time I checked it is about four layers thick. Maybe it needs another layer.

Have a nice day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SAnd

With all due respect for NFATrustGuy and the rest of the people people discussing things here...

I have been following this thread with great interest. I have great respect for the people here. But everything that has been discussed here is all speculation. I don't believe you can use normal legal reasoning when dealing with these laws. There was a press release the afternoon that hick signed the gun laws that said that hick had directed the appropriate office to study the new laws and come up with a set of guidelines on how the laws were going to be enforced. He said they would be out by July 1st. I wouldn't trust any goofball liberal staffer or lawyer to have interpret the legislation as it is written. They are going to interpret it the way they want regardless of what it actually says. Under normal circumstances those guidelines would have been released within days of the signing. I can't help but think they are not going to release any details until it's to late to properly prepare.

And yes my tin foil hat is firmly in place. The last time I checked it is about four layers thick. Maybe it needs another layer.

Have a nice day.

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True, true. It's like Obamacare. pass it then read it when you're called out.. Hick ADMITTED the bill was not a good one , "BUT He Signed it anyway?" To Make changes w/out having another vote smacks or some legal violation. What it is who knows?? Either way this one will end up in court. Although IMHO the NRA will wait until the .gov ramrod's their Reasonable laws down our throats before making a challenge.

Rod: thank you so much for the guidance on this. It is much appreciated.

I want to point out to the people using your Assignment to Trust document that the "Pursuant to Article II, paragraph 2.C. of the Trust Agreement described above..." wording does not apply to people who are using a trust other than the ones that you have created. In that case, I believe that it should be reworded to indicate the correct location of the "add to" clause in their trust, or just remove that particular reference and keep the rest of the sentence. Please correct me if I am wrong.

-Jim

Thread revival for public consumption!

So, I just had my trust created. I'll ping the lawyer on monday as to not harass him with questions over the weekend but thought I would ask the internet lawyers in here their opinion on UBGC and trusts.

So I have a stripped lower, not engraved, sitting sadly in my safe. I have a brand new trust formed.
Tell me how I need to correct the order of events:

1. Get gun trust notarized and filed for safe keeping. WIll keep copy in gun safe where future SBR/suppressors will be stored


2. Have lower, engraved,
Muddywings Trust
CO Springs, CO


2. Fill out Form 1, mail with check and wait


(this is where the UBGC and order gets confusing for me)
3. Have all trustees do a BGC at local FFL (yeah, I get to pay for that)
(once they pass the BGC, how do I document that?)


4. Form 1 comes back good to go.


5. Transfer stripped lower from me, to Muddywings Gun Trust


6. Build rest of rifle


Honestly, I don't know about steps 3-5 and what order would be what. And, how I prove all co-trustees are cleared to be on the trust.

Like I said, this is more for public opinion/consumption in light of UBGC laws but I'm curious on how to transfer a stripped lower from me to Muddywing Trust, when do I do BGC on other Trustees, how do I document that they have undergone a BGC.
My head hurts. time for bed!

I am waiting on the Silencer Shop to receive permission to transfer my suppressor purchase to the local FFL here in Aurora. I understand that when I submit the Form 4 and use a Trust as the legal owner of the item, I am supposed to attach a full copy of the Trust to sent in which would include the assets of the trust. My question then is, if I put my ARs (non NFA required items) and my pistols in the Trust so they can be protected and passed on to my wife if something happens to me, wouldnt I in essence be giving the ATF a full list of all my weapons and serial numbers? I kind of think I am so I am considering only having the suppressor make/model/serial initially in the trust when I get it notorized and then after I get it sent off to the ATF, I transfer the other assets I want to protect. Am I overthinking this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 68Guy

I am waiting on the Silencer Shop to receive permission to transfer my suppressor purchase to the local FFL here in Aurora. I understand that when I submit the Form 4 and use a Trust as the legal owner of the item, I am supposed to attach a full copy of the Trust to sent in which would include the assets of the trust. My question then is, if I put my ARs (non NFA required items) and my pistols in the Trust so they can be protected and passed on to my wife if something happens to me, wouldnt I in essence be giving the ATF a full list of all my weapons and serial numbers? I kind of think I am so I am considering only having the suppressor make/model/serial initially in the trust when I get it notorized and then after I get it sent off to the ATF, I transfer the other assets I want to protect. Am I overthinking this?

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You do not include any non NFA item on you SCHEDULE OF ASSETS paperwork to the ATF. ONLY NFA itmes and whatever your first SoA was. in my case it's the serial # of a $10 bill.

Anything purchased prior to 7/1 belongs to the "trust" . I don't foresee me buying any more firearms for sometime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muddywings

Thread revival for public consumption!

So, I just had my trust created. I'll ping the lawyer on monday as to not harass him with questions over the weekend but thought I would ask the internet lawyers in here their opinion on UBGC and trusts.

So I have a stripped lower, not engraved, sitting sadly in my safe. I have a brand new trust formed.
Tell me how I need to correct the order of events:

1. Get gun trust notarized and filed for safe keeping. WIll keep copy in gun safe where future SBR/suppressors will be stored


2. Have lower, engraved,
Muddywings Trust
CO Springs, CO


2. Fill out Form 1, mail with check and wait


(this is where the UBGC and order gets confusing for me)
3. Have all trustees do a BGC at local FFL (yeah, I get to pay for that)
(once they pass the BGC, how do I document that?)


4. Form 1 comes back good to go.


5. Transfer stripped lower from me, to Muddywings Gun Trust


6. Build rest of rifle


Honestly, I don't know about steps 3-5 and what order would be what. And, how I prove all co-trustees are cleared to be on the trust.

Like I said, this is more for public opinion/consumption in light of UBGC laws but I'm curious on how to transfer a stripped lower from me to Muddywing Trust, when do I do BGC on other Trustees, how do I document that they have undergone a BGC.
My head hurts. time for bed!

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I would not transfer the lower to the trust. Just Form 1 it. Upon approval all persons listed on the trust are covered w/out any BGC. Why do a BGC on an already approved lower that is now covered under Federal / ATF guidelines. That is the purpose of the trust, to add or remove people w/out the need of ATF approval for them, is it not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Great-Kazoo

You do not include any non NFA item on you SCHEDULE OF ASSETS paperwork to the ATF. ONLY NFA itmes and whatever your first SoA was. in my case it's the serial # of a $10 bill.

Anything purchased prior to 7/1 belongs to the "trust" . I don't foresee me buying any more firearms for sometime.

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Zombie thread revival.

This part still confuses me at times.

Example; If I transfer a lower to the trust or purchased a lower as the trust, with the intent to SBR either, I
1. DO NOT list the lower(s) until the Form1 stamp comes back?
2. DO list the lower(s) as of the date of transfer/purchase?

If the item is a trust asset, and gets engraved prior to form1 submission (or receipt), then isn't it to be listed on Schedule-A as a trust asset? Or is the simple Assignment to Trust (or purchase letter) sufficient to prove trust ownership?

To confuse matters more, I believe I was (correctly) told not to list on Schedule-A, the myriad of +15rd magazines that were transferred to the trust via an Assignment to Trust and inventory sheet - hence making #1 the correct answer by default.

I think I need a point of clarification WRT Schedule-A. Is this ONLY for the ATF to see current NFA registered items (excepting the initial $bill trust asset) and only to include NFA items or not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muddywings

Thread revival for public consumption!

So, I just had my trust created. I'll ping the lawyer on monday as to not harass him with questions over the weekend but thought I would ask the internet lawyers in here their opinion on UBGC and trusts.

So I have a stripped lower, not engraved, sitting sadly in my safe. I have a brand new trust formed.
Tell me how I need to correct the order of events:

1. Get gun trust notarized and filed for safe keeping. WIll keep copy in gun safe where future SBR/suppressors will be stored


2. Have lower, engraved,
Muddywings Trust
CO Springs, CO


2. Fill out Form 1, mail with check and wait


(this is where the UBGC and order gets confusing for me)
3. Have all trustees do a BGC at local FFL (yeah, I get to pay for that)
(once they pass the BGC, how do I document that?)


4. Form 1 comes back good to go.


5. Transfer stripped lower from me, to Muddywings Gun Trust


6. Build rest of rifle


Honestly, I don't know about steps 3-5 and what order would be what. And, how I prove all co-trustees are cleared to be on the trust.

Like I said, this is more for public opinion/consumption in light of UBGC laws but I'm curious on how to transfer a stripped lower from me to Muddywing Trust, when do I do BGC on other Trustees, how do I document that they have undergone a BGC.
My head hurts. time for bed!

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There are a few things that might make more sense if they are considered separately:

UPDATE: 28JAN15

I have been educated by Prof. Great Kazoo and Prof. SAnd (Thank you, to both of you...I had been misinformed of the NFA terms Manufacturer and Maker by an attorney.)
Please DISREGARD the following quoted section. It contains misleading/incorrect information.
Please see their posts below.

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1) ENGRAVING -

Engraving is not ALWAYS required and is really a separate issue from NFA issues.

The only time engraving has to take place is if you are making a new NFA weapon that has no previous serial number and mfg. name etc. already on it.
For example,

• if you go get materials and machine a suppressor from scratch
  
• If you want to use a CNC machine and make a receiver or lower from a block of metal
  
• If you already have a 'no serial number' receiver (converted from and 80% lower) and want to make IT an NFA weapon

Thus, when making an SBR from a purchased (already serialized) lower, engraving is not necessary.

In short, the ATF needs the ability to identify and track (ownership and location) of the NFA weapon.

1. If it has a serial number/mfg etc. on it, no engraving is needed.
   
2. If it does not, you need to engrave it to put this info on it.

When you send in your Form 1, you will identify the firearm by either (1) or (2) above, depending on the situation.

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2) WHEN TO MAKE/CONVERT THE NFA ITEM -

The item cannot be made until you have received approval from the ATF (viz. after you get your tax stamp).

In your case, if you have a NON-NFA (Title I) lower, say S/N 123, and you apply to the ATF to 'convert the status' of S/N 123 from a Title I 'regular' receiver, to a Title II 'NFA' SBR,
as soon as your tax stamp is approved and you acquire the parts to make the SBR, that item is now 'registered' and treated as a SBR, regardless of whether you have put it together or not.
Thus you are fine owing the lower, but the short barrel should be bought after the tax stamp is received/approved.

If later you wish to remove the short barrel and sell the receiver as a Title I item ('regular non-NFA receiver'), you can, providing you don't sell it and the barrel together to the same person (i.e.effectively selling an SBR parts 'kit'). ATF, as I recall, recommends you CYA by sending them a letter identifying the receiver and explaining that you took it apart and sold it as a Title I item. (But I could be wrong)

3) WHEN TO TRANSFER TO THE TRUST

Because of the passing of HB 13-1229, Colorado now requires all parties associated with the Trust that have access to the firearms to undergo a BGC, when a new firearm is added ***
1229 was rushed into law and has vagueness, undefined implications, and unclear language.

It is unclear if this referrers to the Trustees and the Beneficiaries or just the Beneficiaries.

Each time a new person is added to the trust, 1229 implies, but does not explicitly indicate, that this new person must get a BCG if firearms are trust assets.

Each time a new firearm is added to a trust, 1229 indicates that all parties in the trust that have access to the firearm must get a BGC.

*** Note: 1229 seems to apply ony to firearms, and excludes other catagories, such as suppressors, destructive devices, etc. However, I have seen new ATF documentation requiring the person 'picking up the item (suppressor, in particular) on behalf of the trust to be required/requested to get a BGC.

So if you have a 'bunch' of stuff to put in the trust, put it in all at once, and let everyone get 1 BCG each, for all the items in the trust.
Adding one-item-at-a-time, would require 1 BGC for each person, for each item, whenever it is added, and costing much more.

Because the law is not explicit on what to do when adding a new person to an existing trust containing firearms, I have personally talked to FFLs and attorneys that disagree on the BGC.
Some say, no BGC needed if a person is added AFTER the firearm is in the trust
Others say, there is an implied requirement to get a BGC for each added person.

NOTE: Prior to 1229, it was easy. No BGC was needed for anyone at anytime.

4) WHY THE $10 Bill ?

One of the requirements to make a trust a 'legal' entity is that it must be funded (viz. have assets).
If the trust every sells off all its assets, it is no longer recognized as a trust and ceases to exist, in a legal sense.
When one applies to the ATF for, say their first suppressor, they cannot list the suppressor as a trust asset until they take posession of the suppressor.
(Sort of a chicken and egg condition)

Thus when one applies for their suppressor tax stamp, and one sends the ATF a copy of their trust, the trust must also show at least one 'ASSET'...or the ATF will reject the application on the basis that trust 'soes not exist', as it has no assets.

The easiest thing to do is take an item of value such as a $1 or $10 bill, put it in an envelope, list it, by serial number, as a trust asset on the schedule of assets...and never get rid of the $1/$10 bill .
Thus the trust will always exist and will be 'funded' when the ATF looks at the schedule of assets.

If I have misrepresented/misstated anything above, let me know, and I will fix it...

I have not intended to disrespect anyone else's opinion, nor claim that mine is 'Gospel'. I have merely tried to explain it, as I know it, in a piece-by-piece fashion.

I hope this helps you, even if just a little bit ...
[Beer]

1) ENGRAVING -

Engraving is not ALWAYS required and is really a separate issue from NFA issues.

The only time engraving has to take place is if you are making a new NFA weapon that has no previous serial number and mfg. name etc. already on it.
For example,

• if you go get materials and machine a suppressor from scratch
  
  
• If you want to use a CNC machine and make a receiver or lower from a block of metal
  
  
• If you already have a 'no serial number' receiver (converted from and 80% lower) and want to make IT an NFA weapon

Thus, when making an SBR from a purchased (already serialized) lower, engraving is not necessary.

Not so regarding a lower from a mfg. If & when i Decide to Form 1 an already assembled firearm. IT Must have the Trust Name engraved on it. I tuned the spouses AR and my Draco in to SBR's. After approval, with them now belonging to the Trust AND a NFA item. The Trust Name gets engraved on the received, somewhere. The receiver is no longer a Title 1 receiver but NFA .
Reference: 4h on the Form 1 application. Additional Description (Including all members and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm)

NOW if the lower was sent from the mfg to dealer as a factory SBR, you don't need to engrave.

AGAIN those with more knowledge than myself and others Please chime in / correct etc.

The Great-Kazoo is mostly correct.

If you make a NFA item from a manufactured Title 1 you must engrave the makers (trust) name and city and state on the barrel or frame or receiver. You use the manufacturers existing model, caliber, and serial number for the other markings. The serial number can only be on the receiver.

Page 35 in the ATF National Firearms Act Handbook covers this. The ATF National Firearms Act Handbook is an official from the horses mouth source of information. It is generally understandable. Chapter 6 is about making NFA stuff.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/...s-act-handbook

I have never entered anything in 4h.

The barrel can be a handy place to engrave the makers information. You can change the barrel and sell it as a Title 1 without your markings on it.