Emissions Question...

Gents,

Took my 2000 Saturn SL down to the emissions testing today at it failed, unfortunately. I had high HC and high CO readings. Everthing else passed no problem. Something I didn't realize before I took the car over there is: It does need an oil change, it has been sitting for a couple of months and the gas is probably crap. I did drive the car for about 20-30 minutes before taking it down there. That being said, is there anything else I can do to help bring my numbers down into the "pass" range? Below are the numbers from the print-out that I got from the emissions test. Thanks a million.

HC Maximum: 1.2000
My Reading: 1.7764

CO Maximum: 15.0000
My Reading: 15.1270

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. [Beer]

Sounds like it's running rich. Is the coolant thermostat stuck open? Happened to me.

I'd check the thermostat like Gman said. At 13 years old, have the plugs been replaced? Don't need any fancy platinums, but with age and probably running rich and not burning all the fuel you may want to pull one and check. High HC (hydrocarbons) is unburnt fuel and high CO is usually either a bad cat or engine running at sub optimal air/fuel ratios.

New oil, filter, gas and air filter. Take it back for round two.

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Originally Posted by Gman

Sounds like it's running rich. Is the coolant thermostat stuck open? Happened to me.

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Not that I can tell. I replaced the spark plugs a few months ago, so we're good there. A friend of mine stated I should decarbonize the motor, clean out the throttle body, replace gas with good quality higher octane gas and dump in some BG 44K then go back after running it for about 30 minutes. Thoughts?

Ok.... High CO indicates a rich condition. Possible culprits: air filter, oil in need of changing, stale fuel.

High HC indicates a misfire, so plugs, wires, anything that could make the engine miss under load.

Replace the air filter, check the plug wires, distributor cap and rotor(if applicable), change the oil.

You may want to dump a couple of gallons of E85 in the tank and fill it with fresh gas, premium is not necessary or particularly beneficial. Make sure there's no exhaust leaks, particularly upstream from the O2 sensor.

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Originally Posted by Squeeze

Not that I can tell. I replaced the spark plugs a few months ago, so we're good there. A friend of mine stated I should decarbonize the motor, clean out the throttle body, replace gas with good quality higher octane gas and dump in some BG 44K then go back after running it for about 30 minutes. Thoughts?

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Snake oil, and TFOGGER stole my thunder by posting before I could change from a iPad to a computer.

I will add just one question. Is there a check engine light?

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Originally Posted by tmleadr03

Snake oil, and TFOGGER stole my thunder by posting before I could change from a iPad to a computer.

I will add just one question. Is there a check engine light?

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No. There are no "Service Engine Soon" or "Check Engine Lights" whatsoever. The only fail was the HC & CO. Also, how often should you replace spark plug wires. I replaced them in 2007. The car fires right up but tends to idle real low and does die on occassion at red lights. I was told that is most likely carbon build up on the Idle Air Control Valve.

GM solid state ignition systems are damn near bullet proof. I'm sticking with my earlier statement. I never had any indication prior to failing my emissions test that anything was wrong. Put in a new high-temp thermostat and passed with fractional values to the max thresholds.

It's pretty amazing how a $5 piece of old-school technology can throw off the new-fangled computers.

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Originally Posted by Squeeze

No. There are no "Service Engine Soon" or "Check Engine Lights" whatsoever. The only fail was the HC & CO. Also, how often should you replace spark plug wires. I replaced them in 2007. The car fires right up but tends to idle real low and does die on occassion at red lights. I was told that is most likely carbon build up on the Idle Air Control Valve.

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When you change the plugs. Go get yourself a GOOD set of plug wires (this isn't coil on plug correct?), change the oil, check your air cleaner and you will probably pass.


ETA: Also, while they don't require high end double throw down triple platinum plugs you don't want crap in there. What brand did you use?

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Originally Posted by tmleadr03

When you change the plugs. Go get yourself a GOOD set of plug wires (this isn't coil on plug correct?), change the oil, check your air cleaner and you will probably pass.


ETA: Also, while they don't require high end double throw down triple platinum plugs you don't want crap in there. What brand did you use?

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Correct, it runs from distributor to plug. Also, I used Champion plugs (nothing fancy) but if I need to, I'll replace them with something better. Perhaps I'll pick up a set of good plug wires while I'm at it. Any recommendations there tmleadr03?

You should have coil packs and no distributor on your Saturn.

I've tried Bosch Platinum plugs on a Chevy....vaporized the platinum center electrode. Went back to AC/Delco plugs.

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Originally Posted by Squeeze

Correct, it runs from distributor to plug. Also, I used Champion plugs (nothing fancy) but if I need to, I'll replace them with something better. Perhaps I'll pick up a set of good plug wires while I'm at it. Any recommendations there tmleadr03?

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NGK for plugs. No question. Some of the best plugs out there and for your engine not that expensive. Champion are... no.

For plug wires, I would say what NAPA or Carquest has as a "Top Shelf" brand should be perfect. This isn't really the type of car I am intimately familiar with so I am not entirely certain what plug wires are decent. 99% of the cars I work on don't use plug wires.

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Originally Posted by Gman

You should have coil packs and no distributor on your Saturn.

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I'll double check, pretty sure it had a distributor. Gimme a second, I'll check.

Okay, just checked. Gman is correct, my mistake - the Saturn has 2 coil packs, no distributor.

Also, for anyone who knows...would it be wise to go ahead and decarbonize the motor? Figure that has to help. A friend of mine recommended Marble Mystery Oil slow trickle into the intake manifold for about 30 minutes. Again, thoughts?

I seriously don't believe that's the cause. That engine should be running nowhere near the max allowable values. Carbon is likely just a symptom of running rich.

Your biggest problem is fuel/air mix, not ignition.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...pL._SY300_.jpg oil change clean the maf sensorhttp://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/.../crc/05110.jpg a new air filter

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Originally Posted by Gman

I seriously don't believe that's the cause. That engine should be running nowhere near the max allowable values. Carbon is likely just a symptom of running rich.

Your biggest problem is fuel/air mix, not ignition.

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Okay, not sure what the thermostat has to do with fuel/air mix? Explain that one to me please. I'm still stuck on cleaning the throttle body and IAC valve. I kind of want to see how much carbon that thing has on it. So if it's a fuel/air mix issue, what do you propose for the fix Gman?

And thank you all so very much for the help. I am learning here.

The fuel/air mix has a huge dependency on the temperature of the engine. The old-school analogy is the choke on a mechanical engine. You have to run a rich mixture when the engine is cold to start it. When the engine gets hot, the mix can be leaned out. The GM engines run as lean as possible to reduce the emissions that you're failing. When the thermostat is stuck open, the coolant flow is too high for the engine to get to its proper operating temperature. Replacing the thermostat reduces the water flow and allows the engine to get to full operating temperature and the computer will lean out the fuel/air mixture properly.

Definitely NGK for plugs, could look at using seafoam to clean out the engine. Lukely El paso county doesnt have emissions testing, because there is no way my car would pass right now.

DO NOT USE MMO, it's an abrasive (yes we can debate it just like WD-40) B&G Products, tha's all you need to know.
Crack off and spend the money on the 44K. HOWEVER do not go back for a recheck "after 30 min of driving" fill the tank up drive it on 25 or 70 until you need to fill er up. The 44K is cleaning the valves etc, all that shit may cause you to FAIL AGAIN.

Personally it doesn't seem like you've been on top of your maintenance with this unit. Now you need to spend cash, instead of nickel & dime'ing it, to get passed. ALWAYS do an oil & filter change b4 any emissions test, same for the air filter AND fresh fuel.

ONE ITEM everyone has neglected or forgot to suggest, you change it the fuel filler / gas cap. They test it and once again it's another $10 item you should invest in b4 a recheck.
Every auto parts place said to replace the gas cap, based on how many folks came in after a ET and said they would have passed if the cap had met test specs.

Bottom line, you wouldn't skimp on your guns, why skimp on your vehicles?

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Originally Posted by Gman

The fuel/air mix has a huge dependency on the temperature of the engine. The old-school analogy is the choke on a mechanical engine. You have to run a rich mixture when the engine is cold to start it. When the engine gets hot, the mix can be leaned out. The GM engines run as lean as possible to reduce the emissions that you're failing. When the thermostat is stuck open, the coolant flow is too high for the engine to get to its proper operating temperature. Replacing the thermostat reduces the water flow and allows the engine to get to full operating temperature and the computer will lean out the fuel/air mixture properly.

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Okay, that makes sense. So, as it stands...tomorrow morning - I am going to:

1. Change the oil
2. New Air Filter
3. New Thermostat
4. De-carbon the throttle body to include the IAC valve & mass air-flow sensor
5. Drop some BG44K in the tank along with some decent gas (only on a 1/4 tank now anyway)
6. New plug wires

I agree with Gman and I pulled one of the plugs out of the car and it looked fine. My friend in Texas (also a master mech) said he agrees the NGK plugs are top shelf, but he also said if the car is starting easy, running smooth (not missing) he doesn't believe that changing them will be a big difference in regard to emissions. He did recommend new plug wires since it's going on 6 years. Also, since I only have to do emissions every 2 years, I only plan on running this little gem for about another year at the most. This is the first time it's ever given me any real issues. It's a great running car.

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Originally Posted by Squeeze

Okay, that makes sense. So, as it stands...tomorrow morning - I am going to:

1. Change the oil
2. New Air Filter
3. New Thermostat
4. De-carbon the throttle body to include the IAC valve & mass air-flow sensor
5. Drop some BG44K in the tank along with some decent gas (only on a 1/4 tank now anyway)
6. New plug wires

I agree with Gman and I pulled one of the plugs out of the car and it looked fine. My friend in Texas (also a master mech) said he agrees the NGK plugs are top shelf, but he also said if the car is starting easy, running smooth (not missing) he doesn't believe that changing them will be a big difference in regard to emissions. He did recommend new plug wires since it's going on 6 years. Also, since I only have to do emissions every 2 years, I only plan on running this little gem for about another year at the most. This is the first time it's ever given me any real issues. It's a great running car.

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Don't forget the Fuel Filter.

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Originally Posted by jim

DO NOT USE MMO, it's an abrasive (yes we can debate it just like WD-40) B&G Products, tha's all you need to know.
Crack off and spend the money on the 44K. HOWEVER do not go back for a recheck "after 30 min of driving" fill the tank up drive it on 25 or 70 until you need to fill er up. The 44K is cleaning the valves etc, all that shit may cause you to FAIL AGAIN.

Personally it doesn't seem like you've been on top of your maintenance with this unit. Now you need to spend cash, instead of nickel & dime'ing it, to get passed. ALWAYS do an oil & filter change b4 any emissions test, same for the air filter AND fresh fuel.

ONE ITEM everyone has neglected or forgot to suggest, you change it the fuel filler / gas cap. They test it and once again it's another $10 item you should invest in b4 a recheck.
Every auto parts place said to replace the gas cap, based on how many folks came in after a ET and said they would have passed if the cap had met test specs.

Bottom line, you wouldn't skimp on your guns, why skimp on your vehicles?

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I hear what you're saying Jim. Definitely good advice. This is the first time this vehicle has ever failed emissions in the 7 years I've owned it and generally I do take pretty good care of my vehicles. I admit, it failed because of my lack of proper maintenance prior to going (foolish on my part). This is why I threw it out there for those of you who are far more knowledged in this area than I. The gas cap passed with flying colors, but if you feel it should be replaced - for $10 I'll put a new one on it first thing. I also never realized Champion plugs were garbage (I'm not much of a gear-head). You guys have been awesome with all the great knowledge, again it's greatly appreciated.

Oh, and take it for at least 30 min on the freeway before heading to the testing facility. Get the engine and cat nice and hot.

Roger that Jim, new fuel filter - check.

Absolutely tmleadr03, I'll make sure to do just that!

You guys rock. [Beer]

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Originally Posted by Squeeze

I hear what you're saying Jim. Definitely good advice. This is the first time this vehicle has ever failed emissions in the 7 years I've owned it and generally I do take pretty good care of my vehicles. I admit, it failed because of my lack of proper maintenance prior to going (foolish on my part). This is why I threw it out there for those of you who are far more knowledged in this area than I. The gas cap passed with flying colors, but if you feel it should be replaced - for $10 I'll put a new one on it first thing. I also never realized Champion plugs were garbage (I'm not much of a gear-head). You guys have been awesome with all the great knowledge, again it's greatly appreciated.

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If they passed the cap, leave it. You have their documentation confirming it, no need to replace a good one with another.

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Originally Posted by jim

If they passed the cap, leave it. You have their documentation confirming it, no need to replace a good one with another.

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[Awesom]

When you fill up drop the extra few cents a gallon for good brand fuel, less of a chance of stale gas in the station's tanks.

UPDATE!!! Completed all the necessary repairs, along with removing the throttle body & all my sensors. Dropped in the BG 44K, drove it for about 40 miles on the highway with a fresh tank of 91 octane in it. Took it straight to the emissions testing place and passed with flying colors. My numbers weren't even close to the limits. [Awesom]

Also forgot to mention, it runs better than the day I drove it off the lot. Best $133 I could've spent. Would,ve been $20 less...but I changed the valve cover gasket while I was under the hood (it needed it). Life s good.

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Originally Posted by Devistator

Definitely NGK for plugs, could look at using seafoam to clean out the engine. Lukely El paso county doesnt have emissions testing, because there is no way my car would pass right now.

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What he said

Register the car with El paso county.

Emissions is one of the better scams this State has come up with. As stated previously get that thing registered in a county where this gayness does not exist.

I agree that emissions is a huge scam and waste of time & money. Guess I'm not going to win any awards with the "environmentalists", but oh well. I plan on selling the car in about six months. I have a second car that I own outright that needs work. All of you were great with your advice. Thanks again.