Friend walked in on a burglary.

[Ronin13]

Even if you beat back masses of bullshit you're still going to go through more suffering than it's worth.

Depends. I follow the doctrine that I won't use deadly force unless I'm threatened (life or serious injury), so what's worse, having to fight all that legal bullshit, or watch from heaven as your family mourns your passing? Like that old saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[brutal]

Here's the deal guys.

I made statements regarding my opinion related to the OP and subsequent poster's remarks to the effect of "shoot them dead" and, in my humble opinion, the lack of justification for a clean shoot in this case. I also do believe that if you "provoke," and I do mean provoke, someone into using deadly force against you, while you may possibly be in the right to end that person under very unique and consequential circumstances, you're going to have a shitstorm on your hands. Many other statements are being attributed to me that are completely false and misleading. I'm not going to carry on the discussion with all the 12 year old name calling and false attributions.

It's obvious that we're unable to come to any sort of agreement to disagree on this topic and I really do have better things to do.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

Depends. I follow the doctrine that I won't use deadly force unless I'm threatened (life or serious injury), so what's worse, having to fight all that legal bullshit, or watch from heaven as your family mourns your passing? Like that old saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

You have my entire argument wrong... Just like everyone else in this thread... Even the attorney doesn't have it right.

[hurley842002]

I don't care which side of the argument you are on, if you are of the mindset that "because the law states THIS, then THIS is what will happen", you are wrong. There are way too many variables in self defense, and use of force scenarios to try and predict what will happen. Hell, I don't care if you are a 30 year veteran judge, unless you are a mind reader, you cannot predict the outcome of a court case.

With that said, if you have ever had any formal "use of force" instruction, you have likely heard the term "totality of circumstance". Your decisions in this particular scenario, are going to be based solely on the "totality of circumstances". If you are notified of a criminal entering your home, and you KNOW your child is at home with the babysitter, if you get home before the police are there, you are likely going to enter the home, and be completely justified in whatever actions are necessary.

Flip the script, you get notification while you are at the park with your wife and child, of a burglary in progress at your residence, you or ADT have notified the police, and they are on the way, but you beat them to the scene. What reason do you truly have, to enter the residence? Ultimately, the only reason you should ever use lethal force, or enter into a situation where you could potentially have to use lethal force, is to protect life or limb.

In the end it is up to you to determine if your property is worth having your life turned upside down over. For me unless my family is at risk, it is not worth it, i'll wait for the police. I wish we could live in a world where criminals are held accountable, however we don't, and the criminals are treated as the victims, so I will do whatever I have to do, to ensure I spend many more days with my family.

[Chad4000]

ahhhhhhh but what if you go in even though you know bad guys are in there because you want to make a citizens arrest!!!!! boom /thread!

lol jk

[JM Ver. 2.0]

So I saw my buddy post on FB about how criminals shouldn't break into a house with Pro 2A signs, ADT signs, etc. I called him up to see what happened and here's the story:

He got a call from ADT at work saying that the alarm was going off, they coudn't hear anything but a dog barking and should they call the cops? He told them to alert the cops and he headed home. He got there before the cops and could hear his dog barking upstairs. Fortunately, he had his 9mm with him. He went into the house slowly and since he left music playing (for his dog), the perps didnt even hear him come in. Caught them piling his movies, PS3, etc into a bag. He instructed them to get on the floor at which point, one started crying (17 yr old and 18 yr old). As they waited for the cops to arrive, he made them take their cell phones out, put it on speaker and call their parents. LOL! Cops showed up, he told them the that parents were on their way which amused the cops, to say the least.

Once the parents showed up, one assured my friend this wouldn't happen again. "I didn't raise my child to be like this" type response. The other parent called him a racist, violent asshole. Yup, that's right. No charges pressed because nothing was stolen and nothing was broken. But he was the "bad guy" according to the parent. I tell ya...some kid's parents.

Stay safe out there people.

Should have shot them.

why would you think these are sarcastic replies? the man should've put them in the ground.

Those two posts are what I'm talking about. You can't just walk in and shoot someone. You have to feel you're in danger.

If the two kids put their hands up and said, "we'll leave" and you shot them... Prison.

If they started to walk towards the door and you shot them... Prison.

If you shot them in the back... Prison.


Now, if they threatened you. Sure, shoot away if you want. But you're still going to be in a shit storm for going into the house knowing there could be someone inside.

[Dave_L]

I don't care which side of the argument you are on, if you are of the mindset that "because the law states THIS, then THIS is what will happen", you are wrong. There are way too many variables in self defense, and use of force scenarios to try and predict what will happen. Hell, I don't care if you are a 30 year veteran judge, unless you are a mind reader, you cannot predict the outcome of a court case.

With that said, if you have ever had any formal "use of force" instruction, you have likely heard the term "totality of circumstance". Your decisions in this particular scenario, are going to be based solely on the "totality of circumstances". If you are notified of a criminal entering your home, and you KNOW your child is at home with the babysitter, if you get home before the police are there, you are likely going to enter the home, and be completely justified in whatever actions are necessary.

Flip the script, you get notification while you are at the park with your wife and child, of a burglary in progress at your residence, you or ADT have notified the police, and they are on the way, but you beat them to the scene. What reason do you truly have, to enter the residence? Ultimately, the only reason you should ever use lethal force, or enter into a situation where you could potentially have to use lethal force, is to protect life or limb.

In the end it is up to you to determine if your property is worth having your life turned upside down over. For me unless my family is at risk, it is not worth it, i'll wait for the police. I wish we could live in a world where criminals are held accountable, however we don't, and the criminals are treated as the victims, so I will do whatever I have to do, to ensure I spend many more days with my family.

^This.

[davsel]

I don't care which side of the argument you are on, if you are of the mindset that "because the law states THIS, then THIS is what will happen", you are wrong. There are way too many variables in self defense, and use of force scenarios to try and predict what will happen. Hell, I don't care if you are a 30 year veteran judge, unless you are a mind reader, you cannot predict the outcome of a court case.

With that said, if you have ever had any formal "use of force" instruction, you have likely heard the term "totality of circumstance". Your decisions in this particular scenario, are going to be based solely on the "totality of circumstances". If you are notified of a criminal entering your home, and you KNOW your child is at home with the babysitter, if you get home before the police are there, you are likely going to enter the home, and be completely justified in whatever actions are necessary.

Flip the script, you get notification while you are at the park with your wife and child, of a burglary in progress at your residence, you or ADT have notified the police, and they are on the way, but you beat them to the scene. What reason do you truly have, to enter the residence? Ultimately, the only reason you should ever use lethal force, or enter into a situation where you could potentially have to use lethal force, is to protect life or limb.

In the end it is up to you to determine if your property is worth having your life turned upside down over. For me unless my family is at risk, it is not worth it, i'll wait for the police. I wish we could live in a world where criminals are held accountable, however we don't, and the criminals are treated as the victims, so I will do whatever I have to do, to ensure I spend many more days with my family.

^^^^^THIS!

[JM Ver. 2.0]

I don't care which side of the argument you are on, if you are of the mindset that "because the law states THIS, then THIS is what will happen", you are wrong. There are way too many variables in self defense, and use of force scenarios to try and predict what will happen. Hell, I don't care if you are a 30 year veteran judge, unless you are a mind reader, you cannot predict the outcome of a court case.

With that said, if you have ever had any formal "use of force" instruction, you have likely heard the term "totality of circumstance". Your decisions in this particular scenario, are going to be based solely on the "totality of circumstances". If you are notified of a criminal entering your home, and you KNOW your child is at home with the babysitter, if you get home before the police are there, you are likely going to enter the home, and be completely justified in whatever actions are necessary.

Flip the script, you get notification while you are at the park with your wife and child, of a burglary in progress at your residence, you or ADT have notified the police, and they are on the way, but you beat them to the scene. What reason do you truly have, to enter the residence? Ultimately, the only reason you should ever use lethal force, or enter into a situation where you could potentially have to use lethal force, is to protect life or limb.

In the end it is up to you to determine if your property is worth having your life turned upside down over. For me unless my family is at risk, it is not worth it, i'll wait for the police. I wish we could live in a world where criminals are held accountable, however we don't, and the criminals are treated as the victims, so I will do whatever I have to do, to ensure I spend many more days with my family.

That's been my whole point...

[davsel]

Those two posts are what I'm talking about. You can't just walk in and shoot someone. You have to feel you're in danger.
Agree

If the two kids put their hands up and said, "we'll leave" and you shot them... Prison.
Maybe - if they live to testify against you

If they started to walk towards the door and you shot them... Prison.
Maybe - if they live to testify against you

If you shot them in the back... Prison.
Maybe - if they live to testify against you

Now, if they threatened you. Sure, shoot away if you want. But you're still going to be in a shit storm for going into the house knowing there could be someone inside.
Partially disagree. Yes, you will have issues to deal with whenever you shoot someone. However, just the fact I know someone was inside, I do not believe will have bearing on the case. I have a legal (and natural) right to defend my "castle." This is the part of your argument I do not understand.