I was mugged?!?!

[iamhunter]

All you guys talking about drawing on the guys "as soon as you saw a knife" need a little bit of a reality check.

BigBear handled the situation perfectly.

It's always best to avoid violence at all costs, and at that point where the knife was shown, he had no way of knowing if any of them was packing, which in this day and age is HIGHLY probably.

So unless you're ready to go toe-to-toe 1 vs 3, you need to drop the macho talk here.

Give them your watch, give them your wallet, it's not worth your life.

At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.

But if I could just put the wallet on the trunk and leave, averting the risk of having to take a life or get into a shoot out with three street thugs, I'd give up my wallet every time.

Bravo BigBear, I'm very impressed. You kept your cool, and didn't draw until you had a good handle of the situation.

I'm glad you and your family are safe.

And just as an addendum, you people claiming that you would've put three bodies in the morgue would more likely than not be facing serious homicide charges.

Two of the thugs remained unarmed for all we know, and given the 30 foot distance, you could even have faced some difficulties proving that your life was in imminent danger in shooting the knife carrier.

Just something to think about.

[mutt]

Man, glad you're ok BigBear. Scary shit.

[GreenScoutII]

Any news coverage on this? I bet not. It was a successful representation of CCW in this state. Democratically inclined news doesn't like to flaunt stuff contrary to their agendas.

You might be surprised Friday. It is El Paso county after all. The conservative epicenter of the United States lol..

Big Bear, I'm glad you and your wife are OK. Everyone is alive and unharmed. I'd say you handled it just fine.

[Irving]

At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.

The Tueller Drill may disagree with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

I view the situation a little differently than you do Iamhunter. When someone presents a lethal weapon to me while demanding my possessions, my mind has been made up. Whether their lives are worth my wallet is a decision that they have should have considered before they pulled the knife on me.

[iamhunter]

The Tueller Drill may disagree with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

I view the situation a little differently than you do Iamhunter. When someone presents a lethal weapon to me while demanding my possessions, my mind has been made up. Whether their lives are worth my wallet is a decision that they have should have considered before they pulled the knife on me.

Yes but in the law's eyes, their life, no matter how despicable, is worth more than your wallet. This was not in his home. This was outside.


Like I said you'd PROBABLY be justified in shooting the knifeman, but more likely than not the other two accomplices would turn and run, and at that point you better pull your finger OFF the trigger, because if the cops find bullets in those thugs backs, you're in for a world of legal trouble.


I feel like many people severly underestimate the reprecussions, both legally and mentally, from taking a life. It's not something to be taken lightly.

At the end of the day, why do you carry? To protect yourself? Or to play vigilante?

BigBear resolved the situaion very wisely, without any loss of life or injury. In my book, that's the ideal situation.

And at the point he drew, he could reasonably infer that none of the men had guns.

If you drew at the beginning of the scenario, you're looking at a large chance your 1 gun could be faced with 3 opposing guns. That's not a situation ANYONE wants to be in if they can avoid it.

I'm not trying to preach, I hope everyone forms their own opinion and handles their self defense in the way they deem to be best. If that means shooting all three and dealing with the consequences, go for it. I'm simply expressing my opinion

[BigBear]

I do not know how to do the mass quoting from several sources so I will simply put in bold the questions and my response will immediately follow.

First, I assume you didn't shoot him because he was 10 yards away. Although, since he was 10 yards away, why'd you wait so long to draw down on them?
I waited so long to draw down as it was a 3 on 1 situation. I was waiting to see if the other two guys would produce weapons or if it would be possible to talk it out.

Just kind of a heat of the moment thing?
Definitely, there was no thought process going on, just instinct and what little training I have had.

Purposely distract them by acting in an obsequies manner?
No, the offering of other items was intentional, though not thought about. In hindsight, I was trying to guage their personalities to see how greedy they were and if there would be a peaceful ending.

Oh so how did the police treat you about this?
Police treated me as expected. They saw me with an exposed weapon and drew down. They ordered me to put the weapon down and get on the ground. I did. They hand cuff and put me in a car. The other cop was covering the 2 guys. Once everyone was secured, they started asking questions, I gave statement and press charges. I was a CCW, they verified and released me. I did not get my weapon back until they departed. Wife was smart enough to drop the shotgun behind the door when she saw the cops approaching. She was spared the handcuffs but did give statement, etc. The lead guy said, “She had a shotgun man!” towards one of the cops. The cop simply said, “Shutup fool, I don’t see a shotgun.” HAHA. First cop asked me if she did, I said “Yes Sir, but it is secure in the house now.” He replied, “Fair enough, good job Cara.” No congratulatory sayings etc. Just another day on the job for them it seemed.

Part of me thinks it was a smart moving giving up your watch, wallet, etc. Distracted them slightly. Would you, since you were indeed carrying, have let them take it?
I don’t know. I’ve been asking myself the same question. Again, it was not a voluntary action. I was doing it to subconsciously gauge their interest versus intent.

Why did you even go that far, too concerned that they could have cleared the distance it took to pull?
I let it go that far to see if I’d be able to talk it out. I wasn’t as worried with the distance. More worried about the 3 versus 1.


Did you intend from the outset to comply, and changed your mind when they asked what else you had?
Negative, I will NEVER comply with any threat.

Would you have responded differently had your wife still been there?
I will never know. If my wife was behind me, probably not. If she was in danger, probably so… More than likely, if my wife was involved, I would have arranged a meeting between the 3 and their Maker. Thank God I did not have too. On the other hand, a 5'7 100 lbs dripping wet holding a cement bag women holding a 12 ga sure would get my attention! lol. And don't buy into the recoil myth, my wife can handle anything!

Do you plan on moving now?
We have been planning on moving for a while. Just haven’t cause of finances, breaking the lease, etc.

What part of town were you in?
I live in South Colorado Springs, close to Ft. Carson.

What were you carrying and how?
I was carrying a Glock 19 (9mm) in a paddle holster at four o’clock body position.

I too must admonish you for not finishing the story. The story isn't over till you tell us the rest of the time line to the moment where you go safely back in your house, including your dealings with the local authorities.
I think I did answer that in response to an above quote. Let me know if there are more questions.

Also Big Bear, I'm really starting to question your professionalism as a musician. Perhaps you left out the part where you yelled "Jazz Hands!" when you drew down on the guys?
I do try to be a consummate professional. Yelling “Jazz Hands” is not something a professional musician would EVER do! HAHA. If you doubt my musical abilities, please come to church on Sunday and check out my playing or I can lend you a few CD’s with me on it. The problem with CS is that there are too many dang trumpet players!! You have the AF Academy guys, the Ft. Carson guys, the Symphony guys, people coming down from Denver, the local teacher/band guys, etc… It sucks for me here. Another reason we are thinking of moving.

You were already awake at 3:00am, I imagine the adrenaline dump would have easily kept you up for a few more hours. Did your hands start shaking once you were safe in your home and you had time to relax and the gravity of the situation hit you full force?
I have no slept yet. Wife called in to work and she’s sleeping at inlaws house, but someone has to make the bacon so I’m at work right now. I’ll sleep great tonight. No, I did not get the shakes, etc. I’ve been in one other super scary situation (no I don’t want to talk about it) and that one cured me of ever losing my cool or having shakes. The adreline dump is massive but I am used to dealing with it via martial arts training, music (concerts in front of thousand plus people), my childhood (military father, great family structure/support), public school teaching, and my faith (not worried about dying as my future is secure). Surprisingly, that really helps keep me calm.

Did you recognize those guys?
I did not recognize them.

Are you at all concerned about any retaliation from them or anything?
Yes, but all I can do is be prepared. No use worrying to death about it.

Any news coverage on this?
No one has contacted me. Even if they would, I would politely decline. I do not need, nor desire a spotlight. I like to stay low profile... unless they want to donate to the "Get Tim a decent job so he can get out of student loan debt" fund. HAHA.

If there are any other questions, let me know. Scary indeed though.

[sniper7]

All you guys talking about drawing on the guys "as soon as you saw a knife" need a little bit of a reality check.

BigBear handled the situation perfectly.

It's always best to avoid violence at all costs, and at that point where the knife was shown, he had no way of knowing if any of them was packing, which in this day and age is HIGHLY probably.

So unless you're ready to go toe-to-toe 1 vs 3, you need to drop the macho talk here.

Give them your watch, give them your wallet, it's not worth your life.

At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.

But if I could just put the wallet on the trunk and leave, averting the risk of having to take a life or get into a shoot out with three street thugs, I'd give up my wallet every time.

Bravo BigBear, I'm very impressed. You kept your cool, and didn't draw until you had a good handle of the situation.

I'm glad you and your family are safe.

And just as an addendum, you people claiming that you would've put three bodies in the morgue would more likely than not be facing serious homicide charges.

Two of the thugs remained unarmed for all we know, and given the 30 foot distance, you could even have faced some difficulties proving that your life was in imminent danger in shooting the knife carrier.

Just something to think about.

Why don't you go to the range, at night, in a tense situtation and have a guy stand 10 yards from you. not to mention 2 other guys standing next to him. have them run at you full speed and take you down. see how fast you are and if you would got all three of them?
You WILL lose. A guy pulling out a knife on someone in the middle of the night is enough of a reality check to pull my gun out and have it pointed straight at them. that is my opinion, not a macho talk and it is what I would have done. A knife is a perceived threat which means I draw my weapon, if the guy advances at that point I am in fear for my life (if not already when I saw the knife).

you said yourself to give them your watch and wallet because it isn't worth your life...you yourself just made it very clear you thought your life was in danger, that means draw down in my mind.

just because it isn't what you would have done doesn't mean the rest of us are trying to be macho and you tell us we need a reality check. everyone is different, that is reality.

as far as the legal standpoint, are you a lawyer? do you know a lawyer that is involved in criminal law or that works within the CCW spectrum? if not then i think you should drop your lawyer talk because it would all be hearsay.

and granted this pushes the envelope a little bit, but in the big spectrum something to think about: you say you would give up your wallet every time. At what point do you draw the line after these guys show up week after week demanding money and jewelry? are you willing to live as the victim your entire life? what would be the point in carrying then...you are just going to give your gun to the guy as long as he promises not to kill/hurt you.

[SA Friday]

At 10 yards a knife isn't really a live or die scenario. Now if the man started closing, my gun would be out in an instant.

Define instant. I dry fire weekly and have shot pistol competitively for almost 6 years now. Most, short of Grand Master level shooters are lucky to clear a competition holster in 1.0 second. At A class, in competition I'm in the 1.1s to 1.2s. I can do a 1.0 on a good day, but only out of a competition holster not concealed. Add at least a half second to clear conceament. Then add reaction time, another half second at least. Your instant now is at least 2 seconds, probably more.

I think if I initiate the movement my sorry out of shape broke down 40 year old ass could cover 30 feet and stab you in 2 seconds. Fumble a little and give me another half second, I'm pretty sure I can get to two arteries before you clear.

Putting the car between them was smart as hell.

[Zundfolge]

What part of town were you in?
I live in South Colorado Springs, close to Ft. Carson.

When the wife and I moved to The Springs about 7 and a half years ago we moved into an apartment building on the south end (at the time it was called Falcon Point, not sure what they call it now). Our second night there we heard shots ... some fool tried to rob the liquor store a block from there and got shot at. Ghetto bird showed up and sat 30-50 feet off the deck looking for the guy in the field next to the complex. We realized then we needed to get out of that part of town :P

Good time to buy right now as interest rates are still low and there's a lot of inventory on the market.

[iamhunter]

Sorry if my intention came across as a little bit muddled.

I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life. And if it were me vs a single knife armed mugger, the gun draw would probably be the way to go. (still, I wouldn't use the gun unless I absolutely HAD to.)

But he wasn't facing one mugger. he was facing THREE.

In my thought, I see the act of drawing a weapon against three armed thugs a priori as a good way to escalate the situation from a simple knife-point robbery into a full out gun battle.

If luck was with you, they wouldn't be carrying, but what if they were?

I think doing what BigBear did, and taking a few seconds to feel out the situation is a much safer move.

I mean what do you feel your odds of coming away from a shootout 3v1 are? That's not a chance I could care to take.

And saying "there would be three bodies in the morgue" is all two accurate. If they had guns it'd most likely be two thugs and YOU in the morgue in a situation like that.

Again, not trying to ruffle any feathers, just trying to provoke a little though.

Like bigbear said they had never even talked about it. The more you talk about these kind of scenarios, the more you can adequatley handle them if they ever arise.

And I'm not trying to play lawyer. Although I did minor in criminal law and have done extensive reading into colorado, nevada, and texas lethal force statutes (all places where I have lived). No-one should take my advice as law and everyone is obligated to read and UNDERSTAND those laws for themselves

Also, for a better explanation then I could provide as to NOT shooting the criminals, go back a page and read foxtrot's comment. He puts it into better words than I could.