So Baltimore Riots

[Hound]

Actually no, I think most cops and even PD's are trying to do the right thing. I think that, as with any organization, there are bad apples. I also think that everybody makes mistakes, cop or not. When those mistakes happen, they have to be addressed and if found to be continual, as with a bad apple, removed. Notice that works for both a cop and non-cop. Cops should not get a pass and actually should be held to a higher standard than the average citizen. It is after all, literally, a cops job to know the laws and rules. If they are not held acountable, that becomes a norm. That leads to a bad PD because there becomes a false belief they are above the law and can get away with it. Look at the recent (I think it was) Pueblo sheriff (correct me if I am wrong). That PD was being led by a bad apple and it spread. The issue gets exacerbated in a metro due to the size of both the police force and the citizenry. I think that PD's cannot be independant when thier own are involved. Why would a PD be any different than any other organization. Cop misconduct has to be investigated as independently as possible. Lives are at stake in many instances. Cops should be able to defend themselves but that does not extend to ANY influence on the judgment past what a normal citizen would have. A cop will lie to protect themselves just as much as any other citizen when their own ass is on the line. I disagree with the thin-blue line mentality of protecting your own over letting justice be servered. I disagree with cops having ANY privacy where the job is concerned above what a normal citizen has. I think that the new cameras are a great idea. I hope it comes down to if the cop does not have video or some other proof, charges are generally dropped. They should always allow videos of what they are doing. If they are doing it right it will only help them. That is the heart of innocent until PROVEN guilty.

I would hate to see what it would be like if there were not cops out there. They see things nobody should see and many times get little support or understanding from people. I think this sometimes leads to an us vs them mentality..... "THEY don't understand what WE go through" and that leads to mistakes. I think this is why there is such a big case for more community policing. We all want Andy Griffith, we don't want Barney.

I am watching a story on Tommy Norman on CNN.......... That is what people want. That is what people should think of when they hear the word 'Cop'. You might want to look it up.

Based on your previous posts, I am assuming you believe there is something wrong in every PD.

I believe that there is something wrong and could be made better in every human endeavor... including the Department of Justice.

Time will tell and history will judge who did the best thing in this situation. We are just the old men sitting around the barber shop complaining about stuff.

[Singlestack]

If these cops get railroaded, it will send a strong message to not be a cop in the big liberal cities - since the city leadership (mayor, prosecutor, etc) do NOT have their back. I would think this would either reduce the number or quality of officers. Perhaps this creates the problem that the feds conveniently "fix" with a national police force (at least in the bigger cities)?

[Irving]

Just to be clear on this, does anyone really think that a guy in handcuffs broke his own neck?

I know all matter of things are possible, but it just seems ridiculous to me that a guy dies in police custody, and the knee jerk reaction of people is, "Well, clearly he broke his own neck!" I get that people here will tend to lean in the opposite direction of whatever the perceived stance of the public is, and that emotions are raw because of the rioting; but it is insane to automatically assume that someone broke his own neck. Even if he just wasn't not properly secured in the vehicle and was injured from sliding around the vehicle, there is still police culpability here.

[Monky]

They are culpable. I don't think an officer had hands on.. but just like falling down a set of stairs, or even off a chair, people can snap their neck. Typically while it only takes #15 of pressure to sever the spinal cord, it's not as simple as the movies make it look. There is technique to it. I don't see an officer even placing a knee on the back of his neck and snapping it w/o bouncing up and down. Do I see being bounced around in a metal cage off a bench at a weird angle as possible, yes.

I just HOPE one of the officers didn't have hands on in doing so.

[cstone]

Just to be clear on this, does anyone really think that a guy in handcuffs broke his own neck?

I know all matter of things are possible, but it just seems ridiculous to me that a guy dies in police custody, and the knee jerk reaction of people is, "Well, clearly he broke his own neck!" I get that people here will tend to lean in the opposite direction of whatever the perceived stance of the public is, and that emotions are raw because of the rioting; but it is insane to automatically assume that someone broke his own neck. Even if he just wasn't not properly secured in the vehicle and was injured from sliding around the vehicle, there is still police culpability here.

You are responsible for providing reasonable care for anyone in your custody. You can't let the victims of the suspect's crime come beat the tar out of him while he is in your custody. That doesn't mean the Dallas police officer transporting Lee Harvey Oswald should be sued or prosecuted for what Jack Ruby did. You should not drop them on their face while they are cuffed. That doesn't mean you have to wrench your back out while the subject intentionally kicks at you or picks up their legs as you walk them down stairs.

If someone has a medical event and it is unknown to the officers then it would be unreasonable to hold them responsible for damage as a result of the medical event. Example: Subject has just ingested a large quantity of drugs before the officers encounter and arrest the subject. Subject has just been placed in custody after a lengthy foot chase and appears to be flush and breathing heavily. Subject asks for an inhaler. Officers should ask dispatch to have EMS respond to evaluate subject before transport. While waiting for EMS, subject goes into cardiac arrest. Officers provide first aid to the level of their training and update dispatch so they can update EMS. If the subject dies before or after EMS arrives due to the cardiac arrest, then the officers should not be held accountable, either civilly or criminally for the death.

The purpose of the investigation and the trial will be to determine what the circumstances were with Gray and what the officers knew at the time. Did the officers break his neck? I don't know. Did Gray break his own neck? It doesn't seem likely but again, I don't know. Did Gray do something to make a previous spinal injury worse? I don't know. Did the wagon driver or arresting officers do something to break Gray's neck or make a previous spinal injury worse? I don't know. These are questions that will need to be answered by the prosecutor and proven to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

If anyone here knows the answers to these questions, I am reasonably certain that there are prosecutors and defense attorneys in Baltimore who would very much like to talk to you.

[crays]

Anyone consider that mister Gray may have, indeed, been trying to injure himself while in custody? Looking for a fat check, maybe?
Maybe things went horribly wrong for him?
Couldn't control his movement, given the situation and environment?

Something to consider, from someone playing Devil's advocate.

[Irving]

Anyone consider that mister Gray may have, indeed, been trying to injure himself while in custody? Looking for a fat check, maybe?

Absolutely possible. The gap between trying to beat yourself up and breaking your neck is too far for me to automatically assume that whatever happened was 100% at his own hands. I guess that is about the most simple way I express my stance. Otherwise, I haven't made much comment because I don't know anything at all and I'm sure we'll all find out sooner or later. While I don't want to look like I'm defending rioters in anyway, I'm not ready to take the stance that he killed himself in an attempt to distance myself from the other camp.

[crays]

Missed my point. Going for injury...Oops, wasn't completely healed from the surgery.
Or, may have caught an edge in the van.
I'm merely presenting possibilities.

[crays]

And after re-reading your post, I'm not asking you to believe he set out to break his own neck. Think entitlement community.
Injured in po-po custody = fat check.

[crays]

Certainly as much a possibility as anything else.
To be fair, he may have been boot-stomped by the local racist PD.
Formulate your own opinion.