Looks like the armed resident was shot by responding LEO...

[cstone]

I didn't say that any time an officer kills someone they should lose their job. Didn't the officer that killed Black also kill someone else before then? I thought there wasn't a question about the first one.

I don't want to suggest this is ready or black and white, because of course it isn't. The unions add another level of complexity and I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm not aware that do as well.

Yes, the last part of the DA's report noted that Officer Limbaugh had shot and killed someone just over a month before he shot and killed Mr. Black. According to the report, the dead man had attempted to fire at Officer Limbaugh but his weapon failed. Officer Limbaugh then fired his handgun killing the person. There was body camera footage in that shooting as well. It was reviewed and Officer Limbaugh was not charged with a crime in that homicide. He had just returned to duty two weeks prior to this shooting and he did so after completing Aurora PD's reintegration program for officers after being involved in a shooting. This includes a psychological evaluation.

It is unusual for any officer to have killed two people in their entire career, much less two in less than two months. Maybe the first shooting had an affect on Officer Limbaugh. I would assume that it had to have had some impact as killing someone is not something that goes easy for normal people. Regardless of what anyone believes after viewing the video, the killing of Mr. Black seems to have been thoroughly investigated and it was reviewed by a prosecutor who determined that no charges should be brought against Officer Limbaugh...again. I don't know what happened afterward but I am certain the case was reviewed by IA for any indications of administrative wrong doing. I don't know if Officer Limbaugh is still employed by Aurora PD or in any law enforcement capacity. I assume that both the Harper family and the Black family hired attorney's and some sort of compensation was paid because that is the normal way of settling law suits even when there is no appearance of wrong doing.

I will not sit in judgement of Officer Limbaugh for killing Mr. Black. I will not sit in judgement of Mr. Black for killing Mr. Harper or not dropping his handgun when the officers were yelling at him to drop the gun. As was noted previously, it was a shitty situation all around. My opinion will not change that for either the living or the dead. I pray that none of us ever find ourselves in any of those places.

Be safe.

[hollohas]

This is one of the most chaotic home defense/invasion situations I have ever read about or seen. Absolutely insane.

I think the homeowner did everything right. I don't even question his not dropping his gun. He didn't know who was outside issuing commands. I actually argued in this forum many years ago that carrying a flashlight in hand rather than on a weapon might be a good idea for home defense because then you could identify good guys without pointing a gun at them. When confronted a 2nd time in mere seconds with unidentified individuals in/at his house he didn't immediately shoot. But instead he kept his gun at his side and raised his flashlight to identify the individuals first. Great, great job. But it didn't help him.

And that's my biggest issue with this situation. Cstone, you say the officers acted as most are trained but I think that must only be partially correct. Are they not also trained to identify themselves? Neither officer did in this case. A simple "POLICE!!!!!!" Could have been a world of difference in this case. They had time to issue multiple commands yet they never identified themselves. That must be trained. This homeowner may have responded to that (although it's speculation here, the homeowner was hearing impaired) but the point stands and should be a general procedure when police are entering a situation which all common sense indicates there a good guys in the house too. Identification is absolute importance.

All good self defense training teaches that identification is critical. This homeowner followed that doctrine even if he didn't have any training. And I know that LE is trained to identify first too. They train shoot/no shoot for similar situations. Does the guy raise a gun or a phone, a flashlight or a knife? Shoot/no shoot? Some agencies more than others...

All that said, I don't judge the officer either and I don't think this shoot was criminal. It's simply a tragic event every way you look at it.

But it's surely a grim reminder for us civilians that prepare for home defense. We can do everything right, and it still might not be enough. One thing that didn't happen here is the other residents didn't offer any help to the officers. Other residents MUST provide information to responding officer if the situation is still ongoing. Multiple people were asked what's up as the officers arrived but the information they provided was limited. We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her". That little bit alone could help the officers wait a second longer to identify whoever it is holding a gun inside.

I appreciate the Aurora PD for releasing this video. Gives us all more to think about when we prepare for home defense.

[hollohas]

I'll add this too. LEO training should be more than just generic shoot/no-shoot. It's not as simple as "Guy with gun doesn't drop it = shoot" everytime. Situation should dictate.

For example. Guy just gets pulled over by clearly identified police (flashing lights, etc) on highway, gets out of car with gun, doesn't drop gun when commanded...that's a pretty clear threat and immediate shoot for LE.

Residence that clearly has lots of innocents around, dark outside, obvious home invasion/defense situation, guy doesn't drop gun immediately...maybe should dictate an additional few seconds to make sure guy with gun is a bad guy.

I know some LE agencies make distinctions like this in their extensive training and I know others do not in their more limited training. But it's a disservice if LEO's aren't given more situation based training.

[Great-Kazoo]

This is one of the most chaotic home defense/invasion situations I have ever read about or seen. Absolutely insane.

I think the homeowner did everything right. I don't even question his not dropping his gun. He didn't know who was outside issuing commands. could identify good guys without pointing a gun at them.

When confronted a 2nd time in mere seconds with unidentified individuals in/at his house he didn't immediately shoot. But instead he kept his gun at his side and raised his flashlight to identify the individuals first. Great, great job. But it didn't help him.

A simple "POLICE!!!!!!" Could have been a world of difference in this case. They had time to issue multiple commands yet they never identified themselves. That must be trained. This homeowner may have responded to that (although it's speculation here, the homeowner was hearing impaired) but the point stands and should be a general procedure when police are entering a situation which all common sense indicates there a good guys in the house too. Identification is absolute importance.

All good self defense training teaches that identification is critical. This homeowner followed that doctrine even if he didn't have any training. And I know that LE is trained to identify first too. They train shoot/no shoot for similar situations. Does the guy raise a gun or a phone, a flashlight or a knife? Shoot/no shoot? Some agencies more than others...

All that said, I don't judge the officer either and I don't think this shoot was criminal. It's simply a tragic event every way you look at it.

But it's surely a grim reminder for us civilians that prepare for home defense. We can do everything right, and it still might not be enough. One thing that didn't happen here is the other residents didn't offer any help to the officers. Other residents MUST provide information to responding officer if the situation is still ongoing. Multiple people were asked what's up as the officers arrived but the information they provided was limited. We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her". That little bit alone could help the officers wait a second longer to identify whoever it is holding a gun inside.

I appreciate the Aurora PD for releasing this video. Gives us all more to think about when we prepare for home defense.

I deleted a few lines and cherry picking your post for a few reasons. Since there's no reason to quote your entire post.

There's a few issues with the incident

1: The deceased was hearing impaired.

2: firearm discharged in a confined space- the house.... You fire off a round w/out hearing protection, then listen to what you can or cannot hear. That itself was a major issue. It could be for anyone with good hearing, let alone the decreased capability to hear in a normal situation.


3: We must teach our wives, children, roommates, etc to do this. Take 2 seconds to tell officers "My husband/Mom/Dad, is a good guy still in the with a gun. Don't shoot him/her".

Here's my take based on what happened to my brother while trying to stop an armed robbery in progress. Multiple people were YELLING...HE'S THE GOOD GUY. HE'S A FEDERAL AGENT, DON'T SHOOT

Lets Start at beginning.

Brother walks in back door of pharmacy. Employees says we are being robbed, that's the guy, he has a gun. Brother issues command FEDERAL AGENT, DROP YOUR WEAPON YOU'RE UNDER ARREST!

After having what was clearly a gun pointed at him in the store. Brother discharges his service pistol, scores hit on BG. The scene then moved outside after BG flees. Brother tackles him, wrestling on the ground,.


In the few seconds, if that, of 2 people (Brother and piece of shit convict) wrestling on the ground. 4 hands on gun, shot goes off grazing retired le's head.
That retired LE came out of another store, after people in drug store ran for help. Shot who he "thought" was the BG based on his interpretation of the scene at that moment.

Turns out the one he "thought" was the BG was not, but a responding LE who himself acted in the moment. Based on what he was told by known employees of store.

SO you can have as many people yelling to the cops, who's who, even pointing out the good vs bad guy. Unfortunately tunnel vision and the 1-2-3+ responding LE's interpretation of what's happening at that moment. Can and will effect everyone involved for the rest of their lives.


Good shoot-Bad Shoot. While we all have opinions of what happened based on camera footage, etc. Not being in said officers shoes, will never truly know what was going on. Only what he said to investigators after the incident, of how he saw the scene playing out.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

As a follow up of the incident that took our brothers life. The POS who started the chain of events that transpired. The gun he pointed at my brother. was a fuking pellet gun. .

In that case the situation wasn't one where color was involved. Just imagine if the BG been a P.O.C and information after investigation released, said the deceased was carrying a BB Gun.

Once again judgement call by my brother. He saw GUN! pointed at him. This after employees said they were robbed. How would you have responded as a LE in that scenario? Which IMO is a topic best done in a separate thread.

[hollohas]

SO you can have as many people yelling to the cops, who's who even pointing out the good vs bad guy. Unfortunately tunnel vision and that 1-2-3 LE's interpretation of what's happening at that moment. Can and will effect everyone involved for the rest of their lives.

Agreed. Sometimes shit happens. That's why I also agree with the decision not to discipline/charge the officer. This specific situation is simply tragic in every way. It went the way it went, there is no one to blame. Sucks, but that's the world sometimes. As my Dad always told me "Life's a bitch...and then you die".

That said, it's still valid to discuss these things because everyone can learn something from every situation.

PS - this home owner saved a life that night. That's a win in my book and I'm willing to bet that was his only concern at that moment. His family should be proud.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'll add this too. LEO training should be more than just generic shoot/no-shoot. It's not as simple as "Guy with gun doesn't drop it = shoot" everytime. Situation should dictate.

For example. Guy just gets pulled over by clearly identified police (flashing lights, etc) on highway, gets out of car with gun, doesn't drop gun when commanded...that's a pretty clear threat and immediate shoot for LE.

Residence that clearly has lots of innocents around, dark outside, obvious home invasion/defense situation, guy doesn't drop gun immediately...maybe should dictate an additional few seconds to make sure guy with gun is a bad guy.

I know some LE agencies make distinctions like this in their extensive training and I know others do not in their more limited training. But it's a disservice if LEO's aren't given more situation based training.

If you can try, finding one of the FATS or other "live" training exercises offered. Those seconds could mean the difference between your life or theirs ending. Even better, try finding a simunitions training course where you're engaged in a "live fire" exercise against others. Between the adrenaline flowing, having to make split second calls, etc it will open ones eyes , and mind.

[ben4372]

Daniel Shaver did everything he was told and died in a hotel hallway for it.

I know. That story broke my heart, and made me crazy. Listened to Mark Geragos talk about it early on. Sounds like not much happens to cops in Arizona either. I know it's not Mayberry but we need to knock it of with the military style policing. I'm tired of being own of their threats. Some cops see us as enemy combatants. Anyone that says "it's only a few" is missing the point. Those rotten ones still have arrest powers and guns.

[Irving]

Something is lost in translation with my post. I'm not asking for judgement on anyone. I'm saying if you kill someone that shouldn't have been killed, then you can get another job.

I agree with the sentiment that life's not fair, but why should that end at the wrong person getting killed? I'd take being fired over being dead any day.

[10x]

Lousy situation. Does the family have any legal recourse against the officer or PD for wrongful death?

[Great-Kazoo]

Lousy situation. Does the family have any legal recourse against the officer or PD for wrongful death?

That's usually settled between the family and city , possibly the officer as well in a civil suit.