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Even Holder Admits ( after trying to use semantics.. rather FAIL style ) That Fast and Furious made NO attempt to track the weapons and was COMPLETELY different then Operation Wide Receiver. That F&F was started under HIS watch, and that the Mexicans were NOT informed.
Which part of all of this is your issue: that FFLs in the US had been selling many guns to straw purchasers that then sold the guns to agents of drug cartels that smuggle them into Mexico or kept them in the US for use in crimes, and had done so for years before the ATF got involved, and continue to do so; that the government ran a sting operation, similar to one that had been run before, to interdicst those sales; that they lost accountability for some of the guns; some of those lost guns were used to kill two US agents in the performance of their duties; the Administration is not releasing detailed documents of the Operation.Originally Posted by clublights
It's a tragedy that our agents lost their lives; no one is disputing that. Yesterday's contempt of Congress ruling shows that the Administration will be held accountable to Congressional requests. However, I don't think we can hold F&F responsible for the level of violence we see coming from the cartels. Here's an article from Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/
Here's an excerpt:
"
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes"
The number for OFF show less than 2k arms were walked. Again, the deaths of our agents is a tragedy, but do you really think that if the 2000 guns from OFF hadn't made it into Mexico that the perps that killed our agents wouldn't have had a gun?
The portion of OFF that allowed walking was ill-advised and against standing policy. Since the folks that allowed it are the ones who make policy, I don't consider it illegal. Unfortunately, stupidity isn't illegal. The ATF should simply track the straw buyers to their rendesvous and arrest all parties. Those are crimes committed on US soil, and since some of those guns never get to Mexico but remain in the US in the hands of criminals, it makes sense to protect American lives.
Stupid, but not illegal. Really stupid, considering how many weapons already flow into Mexico from other sources. Covering up a crime is illegal, of course, and if it's show that they did, they should suffer the consequences. I don't know that covering up stupidity is illegal. It will most likely affect the re-election, however.
Not Illegal?? I guess if you ignore ITAR.
EDIT:
You try running guns to mexico .. see how well that works out for you.
Read the RED parts
I'm looking at that right now, and I guess this is where the lawyers will make a mint. The ATF in OWR or OFF didn't directly export the guns to Mexico or domestic criminals. It's fairly obvious that failing to act to prevent a crime in a government operation isn't necessarily a crime, or we'd have to shut down all stings operations by all LEOs. IANAL, but if we consider bureaucracies in the Executive branch to be acting with the authority and knowledge of the President, then Section 128.1 could be viewed as making the actions of the ATF to be outside the purview of the ITAR. Again, I am not a lawyer and this was just a cursory skimming of a couple of sections of the ITAR.
Maybe ITAR is not QUITE right ...
Maybe more AECA
but put is this way...
If we could even half prove Iran gave 2000 guns to terrorists ( are the cartels really THAT different from the taliban/ AQ? ) and they used those guns to kill 300+ Americans on american soil, we would just shrug it off?
I think most folks ( esp the ones around here) would call it an Act of War. I can't believe the Mexican Government has stood by and not said a word.
And THAT is how you KNOW Obama was involved.
Which part of all of this is your issue: that FFLs in the US had been selling many guns to straw purchasers that then sold the guns to agents of drug cartels that smuggle them into Mexico or kept them in the US for use in crimes, and had done so for years( Two wrongs don't make a right)
Not two wrongs: hundreds of wrongs. The ATF only got involved after the straw purchasing of weapons by US citizens for criminals grew to such a volume that it: came to their attention, and wasn’t being handled by state and local authorities. ATF didn’t start the volume gun trade to Mexico.
before the ATF got involved,(The ATF is supposed to enforce laws not break them)
All law enforcement agencies are purposed to enforce laws, and many of them at all levels run sting operations. OWR and OFF were sting operations, both poorly considered and managed. Still, pretty normal stuff for LE.
and continue to do so; that the government ran a sting operation, similar( not really)
More similar than dissimilar in the macro sense. Let guns flow from FFLs to straw buyers to cartel purchasers, then (the stupid part in both operations) let them move across the border. What that was supposed to accomplish is beyond me. The crimes occurred on US soil, make the arrests there.
to one that had been run before,( and FAILED which is why it was ended in 2007)
Agreed. No idea why they thought it was a good idea, unless to gain some political capital. Can’t blame them for the desire for political capital, as all politicians do that, but poorly advised and executed.
to interdict those sales( nope no effort was made to stop them
Let’s change “interdict” to “follow to the high-ranking individuals running the import operations”, which given the numbers of weapons flowing into Mexico from other sources, and the likely ease of someone else taking over or creating a weapons import operation, is a stupid objective at best.
in fact FFL's were ORDERED to complete the sales)
Granted, as it was necessary for the sting operation. However, in the Fox News article referenced earlier, it was reported that in 2007-2008, 5114 guns were found to have been purchased in the US. FFLs were forced to make those sales, and they continue to makethem today, without ATF pressure, else the government wouldn’t be looking to make the changes to the reporting requirements to the ATF.
; that they lost accountability for some( MOST)
Some and most have the same meaning here.
of the guns; some of those lost guns were used to kill two US agents( and 300+ Mexican Nationals.. that we KNOW of)
I’ll accept that figure without a cite, but how many of these death would still have occurred with weapons imported from other sources? How many Mexican nationals died in total from gang violence? The New York Times reported in January of this year that the Mexican government claimed 47,515 deaths to due drug violence since 2006. We can blame the ATF and DOJ for running a stupid operation, but it’s hardly logical to assume that if OWR and OFF had not been run that all of the deaths related to it would have been avoided.
in the performance of their duties; the Administration is not releasing detailed documents of the Operation.( to cover up the crime)
What’s the crime again?
It's a tragedy that our agents lost their lives; no one is disputing that. Yesterday's contempt of Congress ruling shows that the Administration will be held accountable to Congressional requests. However, I don't think we can hold F&F responsible for the level of violence we see coming from the cartels. Here's an article from Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/
Here's an excerpt:
"
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes"
The number for OFF show less than 2k arms were walked. Again, the deaths of our agents is a tragedy, but do you really think that if the 2000 guns from OFF hadn't made it into Mexico that the perps that killed our agents wouldn't have had a gun?( so the statement" hey they woulda got em anyways.. so it's ok to give them the guns " really sits ok with you ????)
Sits okay? No, not really, but I’m not naïve enough to believe that it would have made a material difference . Not interdicting the guns at the point of transfer was a bad idea. We’ve since changed policy to prevent walking in the future. If allowing guns to reach the cartels is a crime, then we’ve got two sets of folks to arrest and prosecute, don’t we?
The portion of OFF( all of F&F Was letting the cartels walk with the guns)
Perhaps “portion” is too nebulous of a word. Let’s go with “goal”
that allowed walking was ill-advised and against standing policy. Since the folks that allowed it are the ones who make policy, I don't consider it illegal.( so you make the law your ABOVE the law??? are you fucking kidding me ? )
LEOs run sting operations which allow laws to be broken all of this time. Are you shutting those down? Walking violated standing policy, true, but that in itself is not a crime. Your earlier point about the ITAR seems to be the logical area to look for a crime, but that isn’t clear, either.
Unfortunately, stupidity isn't illegal. The ATF should simply track the straw buyers to their rendesvous and arrest all parties.( they tried that in OWR in 2006-07 it didn't work then either)
So you don’t want to arrest either the straw buyers or the cartel purchasers? Is it your belief then that that these gun sales should continue unabated or impeded, even if those guns end up in the hands of criminals on US soil to be used against US citizens?
If the US government gave 2000 guns to Mexican terrorists, then it is an Act of War. But they didn't. I will grant that the ATF coerced the FFLs to sell the weapons to US citizens, but neither of those acts are crimes, and the FFLs seemed willing enough on their own to sell weapons to straw purchasers. They weren't interdicted, but proving failure to act to be a crime will be difficult. I believe I've read that the SCOTUS has ruled the LEOs in this country aren't required to get involved in preventing an active crime.
What is Obama's involvement here? Preventing the Mexican government from declaring war on the US? I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing. Can you enlighten me?
Rucker61, it is nothing short of astonishing that you keep trying to make the same discredited claims.
Is your interest defending Obama? Or is your interest some other partisan goal?
The ATF, with the cooperation of the DOJ and other agencies like the FBI, coerced gun dealers into selling to straw purchasers that the gun dealers themselves reported to the ATF. The ATF did so with no plan to track the firearms. The ATF did so not only not informing the Mexican government of the operation, but intentionally concealing the operation from even the ATF liaison in Mexico City.
There was no legitimate law enforcement purpose for this operation. It resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans and several US Federal agents. Its only purpose was to generate traceable US guns at Mexican crime scenes for bolstering the political case for additional gun control. After the Obama administration had been embarrassed by being caught in lies about the number of US firearms being traced in Mexico. Indeed, it was brazenly used to support the illegal demand of additional reporting by dealers without statutory authorization.
Your attempt to deflect from that has been and remains laughable.
The continual attempt to blame Bush by Obama and his sycophants? Too juvenile for words. My advice to you Obama fans? Grow the F up.
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