Romney: "Obama supporters are dependent on the government"

[Great-Kazoo]

What makes everyone think that the 47% who don't pay federal income tax aren't working? Plenty of them work, they just don't make enough money for income tax. They pay plenty of consumption taxes, as do the rest of us, and we all get to take advantage of those resources. All those folks picking fruit and vegetables work, hanging sheetrock, mopping floors, etc, work their asses off, but don't make enough to incur a federal tax burden. Sure, there are some lazy asses, but don't just paint with that wide of a brush. It's dishonest. That's a "liberal attribute" you don't want.

They don't pay but do have it deducted from their check, Unless they are 1099's.

[Teufelhund]

What makes everyone think that the 47% who don't pay federal income tax aren't working? Plenty of them work, they just don't make enough money for income tax. They pay plenty of consumption taxes, as do the rest of us, and we all get to take advantage of those resources. All those folks picking fruit and vegetables work, hanging sheetrock, mopping floors, etc, work their asses off, but don't make enough to incur a federal tax burden. Sure, there are some lazy asses, but don't just paint with that wide of a brush. It's dishonest. That's a "liberal attribute" you don't want.

I worked for many years not making much, and never taking handouts from anyone. Including working on straight commission installing custom car stereo systems and several years in the military, I always got a refund check, but it has never, not once, been equal to the amount of taxes taken out of my check throughout the year. I admittedly don't know who these 47% are, but if it is true they do not pay any income tax, then they are not working at all, or they are claiming credits and breaks (e.g. "Oh I had another kid I can't feed, looks like I get another tax break.") that should be done away with. Irresponsibility and lack of initiative should not be rewarded any more than being able to afford a team of CPAs to exploit the system to get you the best return.

BTW, and I'm going to throw out another broad-stroke stereotype here just for you, a large portion of those vegetable pickers and sheetrock hangers, who do indeed work their asses off, are not paying income tax or consumption tax at all. That, however, is a different discussion.

GE is one of the worst offenders, and the effective tax rate of the top four hundred corporations would surprise you when compared to your own tax rate.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. I know they're all guilty of taking advantage of a broken system to pay a smaller percentage (and often a smaller dollar amount) than I do, and as I stated earlier it pisses me off quite a bit.

Me, too, but I'm having extra taken out. Our tax burden doesn't really change, and I like having my money instead of the government for the year, but my wife really hates that check going out.

That's not quite the point. I understand there are choices to be made. I could change my withholding to get a smaller paycheck and not have to write such a large check (if any) in April. None of that changes how large a percentage of my income is going to the government (who spends it however the hell they want without my input), nor how little the upper and lower classes are contributing. The middle class alone cannot support the whole damned country, as evidenced by our climbing deficit.

Hootie, I like having you here to play devil's advocate. It gets boring when everyone gathers around for a circle jerk of agreeing with each other.

[Bailey Guns]

I find it equally amazing that the Right, while crying about how many people do not pay income tax, don't have a word to say about all the tax loopholes that allow monstrous corporations like GE and BofA not only to not pay a dime in taxes, but actually receive a tax return. Meanwhile, I have to write a huge check every April because the percentage they took out of my paychecks wasn't enough.

As it's been pointed out there are plenty of people on the right who want to change our idiotic tax code. So I won't even get into that.

What I will argue is your concept that it's wrong for corporations to take advantage of "loopholes" in the tax code. Basically, I feel they're using the language in the code to their advantage. Are they gaming the system? Maybe. But it's the law and what they're doing is legal.

Whining about how the evil corporations get tax breaks through loopholes is a little silly in my opinion.

It reminds me of how liberals pissed and moaned during the assault weapons ban period that manufacturers were using "loopholes" in the law to get around the ban. Of course, they weren't using "loopholes", they were complying with the law. The liberals didn't like it because they tried to write an effective law without having a clue what they were doing in terms of guns and gun features.

[Teufelhund]

So as long as it's legal, it must be OK. That makes me feel way better about the financial mess we're in.

I never proclaimed corporations as "evil." I think that's just as stupid a premise as you apparently do. I think it is BS that the loopholes exist. I don't think it is reaching too far to say those loopholes were introduced via nepotism present in our legislature. It is counter-productive, again, as evidenced by our growing deficit.

[Rucker61]

I worked for many years not making much, and never taking handouts from anyone. Including working on straight commission installing custom car stereo systems and several years in the military, I always got a refund check, but it has never, not once, been equal to the amount of taxes taken out of my check throughout the year. I admittedly don't know who these 47% are, but if it is true they do not pay any income tax, then they are not working at all, or they are claiming credits and breaks (e.g. "Oh I had another kid I can't feed, looks like I get another tax break.") that should be done away with. Irresponsibility and lack of initiative should not be rewarded any more than being able to afford a team of CPAs to exploit the system to get you the best return.

Here's an idea of who those 47% are, based on a little research from as non-partisan sites as I could find:

The 47% figure is from the 2009 tax year, which was the year in which the US suffered from its worst recession ever, and the 47% is the number of Americans not represented on a taxable return, so that includes stay at home moms and children.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/02/19/...-income-taxes/

For the 2009 tax year, the government granted a $500 per worker tax credit (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act) that phased downward after $75k for singles and $150k income for couples, along with improved child credit, earned income credit, increased tax credits for college students and around $8k in tax credits to first time home buyers, among other benefits. With all these tax credits, it's not a surprise that fewer people owed income tax than before.

Current US population is around 300 million, so 47% is about 140 million Americans.

Current welfare recipients (Aid for Families with Dependent Children) number about 15 million. Over half of those stay on welfare for less than two years. It's statistically likely that a substantial portion of these recipients are minors and not eligible to work.

Social Security pays out money to just over 38 million retired folks a month. Disabled recipients including the blind and wounded veterans were another 12 million, 3 million or so survivor children also receive SS benefits. EDIT: if half of your SS benefits plus your other gross income is more than $25,000 ($32,000 if married filing jointly), then you will need to file a return.

Read more: http://www.mydollarplan.com/money-fi...#ixzz26sj25W5e

Current unemployment figures show that 13 million people in the workforce don't have sufficient employee. Granted this number is an estimate and could be higher, but let's use it for our calculations. It's simple math, so you can modify it for your own views.

Given that welfare recipients and Social Security recipients likely don't pay federal income tax taxes, and neither do most of the umemployed, then of the 140 million Americans that weren't represented on a taxable return, about 60 million of them didn't get welfare, didn't collect Social Security and weren't on the lists of unemployed.

Rough numbers, but well within credibility, I'd warrant. I haven't included full time students, but I'm still looking for the data.

BTW, and I'm going to throw out another broad-stroke stereotype here just for you, a large portion of those vegetable pickers and sheetrock hangers, who do indeed work their asses off, are not paying income tax or consumption tax at all. That, however, is a different discussion.

If their employers aren't collecting the proper employment taxes from their workers, then two crimes are being committed. I will put it to you that they aren't going to avoid sales taxes, though. I'll also submit that if they weren't picking the produce, no one else would.

Hootie, I like having you here to play devil's advocate. It gets boring when everyone gathers around for a circle jerk of agreeing with each other.

I believe in a fit of pique I referenced the circle jerk phrase myself, once, and I'll be glad to drink a beer with just about anyone here.

[Rucker61]

As it's been pointed out there are plenty of people on the right who want to change our idiotic tax code. So I won't even get into that.

What I will argue is your concept that it's wrong for corporations to take advantage of "loopholes" in the tax code. Basically, I feel they're using the language in the code to their advantage. Are they gaming the system? Maybe. But it's the law and what they're doing is legal.

Gaming the system is fine. The first section of every chapter in my tax accounting textbook was on Tax Avoidance of the particular topic. I personally find that excessive lobbying with undue influence to modify the tax code to their benefit disturbing. You and I can't offer a job to a Congressman after their term to get them to vote for our benefit, but that limitation doesn't necessarily exist for corporations and lobbies.

[Bailey Guns]

So as long as it's legal, it must be OK. That makes me feel way better about the financial mess we're in.

I never proclaimed corporations as "evil." I think that's just as stupid a premise as you apparently do. I think it is BS that the loopholes exist. I don't think it is reaching too far to say those loopholes were introduced via nepotism present in our legislature. It is counter-productive, again, as evidenced by our growing deficit.

Yeah. It is OK. I may not like it, you may not like it. However, if I made enough money to be worried about such things you can bet your ass I'd be taking advantage of every "loophole" my accountant could find in order to keep a little more of my money rather than send it to the gov't. I'm betting you would, too.

And I don't think nepotism has anything to do with it. (I think you're probably looking for a different word.) I also think that corporations taking advantage of tax law loopholes has very little to do with the growth rate of our national debt.

[Bailey Guns]

Gaming the system is fine. The first section of every chapter in my tax accounting textbook was on Tax Avoidance of the particular topic. I personally find that excessive lobbying with undue influence to modify the tax code to their benefit disturbing. You and I can't offer a job to a Congressman after their term to get them to vote for our benefit, but that limitation doesn't necessarily exist for corporations and lobbies.

I agree with that to a certain extent and I'll agree that some in gov't have motives when they vote for, or introduce legislation, that are less than altruistic.

On the other hand, I'm not afraid to use the power of lobbyists to my advantage through membership in associations like the NRA/ILA. It's been very beneficial to my interests numerous times in the past.

[Teufelhund]

Here's an idea of who those 47% are, based on a little research from as non-partisan sites as I could find:

The 47% figure is from the 2009 tax year, which was the year in which the US suffered from its worst recession ever, and the 47% is the number of Americans not represented on a taxable return, so that includes stay at home moms and children.

I won't question your other statistics. You could have stopped right here. If the 47% includes people who are not eligible to work, it is a nonsense statistic when used in the pretext of the OP.

Minus all the dicking around, my point is that just like I won't give a dollar to the seemingly physically-capable bum on the corner, I don't want to pay a large percentage of my income to taxes so someone capable of working can sit on their lazy ass and not work. Nor do I want to pay more so that a billionaire can get a bigger bonus because his CPAs spent all night figuring out how his company can manage to not pay any taxes. All of these scenarios are products of bullshit legislation that hurt the country more than they help.

If their employers aren't collecting the proper employment taxes from their workers, then two crimes are being committed. I will put it to you that they aren't going to avoid sales taxes, though. I'll also submit that if they weren't picking the produce, no one else would.

Like I said, this is a different discussion. They avoid a majority of sales tax (I'll concede they'll have to pay a little just to get by) by sending the vast majority of their (under-the-table) paycheck home to a different country. I'm not sure how I feel about the "broad-stroke" in your last sentence. I have stood in line at 4am to try to land day labor to make ends meet while I was working on finding something better. I may have been one of very few white faces in that line, but I was there.

[Rucker61]

Like I said, this is a different discussion. They avoid a majority of sales tax (I'll concede they'll have to pay a little just to get by) by sending the vast majority of their (under-the-table) paycheck home to a different country. I'm not sure how I feel about the "broad-stroke" in your last sentence. I have stood in line at 4am to try to land day labor to make ends meet while I was working on finding something better. I may have been one of very few white faces in that line, but I was there.

Like any generality, there are inherent inaccuracies. Good for you for working hard when you had to; my dad, as an Air Force sergeant, worked Saturdays as the janitor for our church to make ends meet, and I had my own kid sized broom to mop for my 25 cents. He never took a dime in handouts either, other than the GI Bill, and he earned that. I picked fruit and vegetables as a kid, though not for money, just to help fill the jars that filled our pantry. As a whole, though, we'd be in trouble, I'd believe, if we didn't have the illegals working for the farmers. Too hard of work for too little money for most of us.