Beer with a liberal

[cstone]

What happens when you and your wife or family die? It could happen tomorrow. Should your son just live on the streets waiting for his social darwin end?

Reductio ad absurdum

Today in the USA, anyone who can notify EMS will be treated for life threatening illnesses regardless of ability to pay.

If you want to argue, please stay within the same frame of reality that we all live within. I do not mind debate with those I disagree with, but will not participate when you make absurd point. Thank you.

[nynco]

I worked in healthcare for over a decade. You get life saving care to stop the immediate death. Nothing else. Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen. People tell that same old sorry story and don't understand the truth.

Even then you are making the argument for gov interference in the market.


Even then I was refering to many things. Not just healthcare. Because an Autistic kid is not going to have the skills to work a job that will pay enough to live. Heck normal Americans can not survive on a regular job. You think someone with a disability can without gov health. Not going to happen. So... what then? Just die?

[cstone]

WHO makes the decision. I would rather put that choice into someone I can elect. I don't want that choice to be with a corporation who already has my money and will cut me off the second they can. I have no say then. I have a vote when it is the gov. Anything other than that and you have nothing.

This would be your position and reasoning people can differ on this point. You vote your way, as it seems to be currently winning elections, but please understand that there are those who disagree and have every bit as much reason to believe that you are wrong and the GOV will continue taxing those who have worked to pay for those who can't or won't work.

[JM Ver. 2.0]

My politics are his best chance in life. It is despite the state school and insurance programs that we are able to achieve any step forward. If he is to have a life it will be because I can provide for him and his mother steps up and does the hard work needed everyday.

It is specifically this well-meaning garbage that youwish to force upon me for the good of the herd that will get in the way of hisfuture and my other children as well. "Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" never referred to healthcare when it was written nordoes it now, it was in reference to opportunity, not outcomes.

Freedom is always preferred, even if it hurts sometimes.

Good luck to you, I wish you the best and hope that you find the world you describe, but please leave mine along.

I donate every year to St. Jude's. Great fund. There is an Autism Benefit Paintball tournament every year at Dynamic Paintball out by Watkins. The owner's son is Autistic. You should check it out sometime.

[cstone]

I worked in healthcare for over a decade. You get life saving care to stop the immediate death. Nothing else. Try to go to the ER to get cancer treatment. Not gonna happen. People tell that same old sorry story and don't understand the truth.

Even then you are making the argument for gov interference in the market.

You don't need to work in healthcare to know that cancer kills people regardless of their ability to pay, or who is paying for the treatment.

I do not choose anarchy, so I agree that some government assistance is required in some areas to maintain a civil society. I do not choose to have the level of government intervention that some people seem to want.

[nynco]

This would be your position and reasoning people can differ on this point. You vote your way, as it seems to be currently winning elections, but please understand that there are those who disagree and have every bit as much reason to believe that you are wrong and the GOV will continue taxing those who have worked to pay for those who can't or won't work.

My way will keep on winning elections because society always evolves in ways that tend to help each other. I believe in a "We society" not a "Me society" the whole "united we stand divided we fall". The way of relying on the market did not work. So people are finally seeing that there must be a different way. Sadly we are the last free nation in the world to get it.

[nynco]

You don't need to work in healthcare to know that cancer kills people regardless of their ability to pay, or who is paying for the treatment.

I do not choose anarchy, so I agree that some government assistance is required in some areas to maintain a civil society. I do not choose to have the level of government intervention that some people seem to want.

My father had cancer, thankfully my mother was able to work to provide insurance for his healthcare. If my mother was dead, I fear my father would be dead today for lack of ability to pay for treatment. Because I can tell you first hand that it is impossible to maintain a normal job when you are going through cancer treatment.

[cstone]

My father had cancer, thankfully my mother was able to work to provide insurance for his healthcare. If my mother was dead, I fear my father would be dead today for lack of ability to pay for treatment. Because I can tell you first hand that it is impossible to maintain a normal job when you are going through cancer treatment.

I am glad to hear your father is in remission.

What I am reading in your comment is that your mother worked to provide healthcare for your father while he was receiving cancer treatment. I did not see where the GOV provided that care. I also did not see where the INS company let your father die.

I also have family members who have been treated for cancer. Some have died, and some are in remission. My father-in-law loved his job and worked every hour he could during his chemo. He would have one of his family members or a co-worker drive him to and from work for his treatments. He died, but that wasn't because of who provided his healthcare.

I find your other comment about how the rest of the world does things illustrative. I believe there is value in observing the way others do things. Based on my travel and experience, I would rather get sick in the USA than almost anywhere else in the world. I also have first hand experience dealing with some of the wealthiest and powerful world leaders who routinely travel to the USA for medical care. Some of these leaders provide healthcare for their citizens, yet when the leader is sick, they come to the USA. Seems ironic.

We won't solve this debate here. You have your way of thinking, and I have mine. Keep voting for what you want and I will do the same.

Be safe.

[dwalker460]

Because if investors are taxed on those investments, which have SEVERE RISK OF FAILING, they wont invest it and that money will sit in offshore banks and NOT be taxed, at all. Only a complete economic moron fails to understand this.
You are taxed more on income from EMPLOYMENT because there is no risk involved. You go to work, put in your hours, and take home your pay. You do not stand a chance of losing anything. If the company fails, you just move to another job, while the investor who put up the capitol for the venture loses every cent he put into it and then some.

Healthcare is the way it is due to insurance and the socialist idea that we are all "entitled" to the best healthcare possible. Bullshit. If I cant pay for a procedure then I dont get it. Period. Unlike you selfish bastards I DO NOT WANT anything I have not earned, and that includes the "best" in healthcare. You know what our heathcare system has produced? A massive deficit and an entire generation of people who cannot deal with pain, sickness, or death. And entire society that considers that there is some entitlement to a new heart, or an organ transplant, or drug rehabilitation, or a number of other things that are paid for BY ME that I dont want to pay for. Selfish bastards who see nothing wrong with paying for rehab for anyone stupid enough to do drugs. Really? EFF THAT! Those wastes of life made a conscious choice to use drugs, knowing they could become addicted and did it anyway. I however do not get the choice to choose not to pay for their rehab, or abortions, or birth control, or any one of a thousand other programs put forth by our socialist .gov . So let them die. We all die. If they are suffering, well then help them die faster, its the humane thing to do.
If YOU want to pay for these things- abortions, contraception, drug rehabilitation, organ transplants for anyone who needs one, etc. then by all means, donate to your favorite charity, use YOUR MONEY however you like, but STOP MAKING ME PAY FOR IT. _I_ just had a tooth pulled, and I payed for it out of the money I earned. We paid for all the bills for my sons birth, and all of his healthcare so far, and yeah sure we have insurance, but its because WE PAY FOR IT. Honestly I would rather have not paid for the insurance the past decade and just paid cash for my healthcare, I would have saved a crapload of money. But it is what it is.

Bottom line is we as humans are not entitled to anything. Period. And every single socialist experiment has failed in dramatic fashion, so its time to wake up and get things back on track. A person is responsible to pay his own way in this world, not to pay for the man or woman next to him. Just because you are born does not mean you deserve to live. Just because you live in America does not mean you will be as successful as the man next to you, or that you deserve all the things someone else has, and no one in this world is guaranteed anything beyond what they are capable of earnign for themselves. Harsh? Yeah, its called life, so get used to it. At some point the socialists will push too far, and when that happens the takers will be feed the earners. The only thing protecting the dregs of our society, those that live off the wealth produced by others is the generous nature of the wealthy and their inherent charitable nature. However, those that get fat off the public dole will do well to realize that those that are driven to succeed are as likely to be driven to protect that which they have earned. Take too much, push to hard, and the consequences are likely to be very harsh.

Also, the biggest travesty I have ever witnessed was my grandfather, who landed at Normandy Beach as a medical corpsman on D-Day, raised a family and lived his life asking nothing from no one, kept alive for months after a stroke left him completely debilitated, unable to speak, with no awareness of anyone in the room, existing only on drugs and machines for no other reason than the doctors could. He should have been allowed to die as a man, not kept alive only because drugs and some machines could. We all knew he wasnt coming back, and once upon a time, he would have simply gone to sleep and passed quietly in the night.

[nynco]

The point is if my father did not have my mother, he would have had no health insurance. That is the point of this reform. Insurance based on employment does not work to provide the most efficient care.

I have also seen those world leaders while working at places like Washington Hospital Center. I also know there are TONS of Americans that travel to other parts of the world to receive healthcare because they can not afford it here. So basing the judgement that we have the best because the richest people in the world can afford it means nothing for 90% of America. As I said, 90% of America is one illness or injury away from oblivion. Obamacare is just a patch on the broken system. A piss poor one. I would have made the age for medicare 0. Then you buy what ever insurance you want after that. It creates a base rather than having none.