Powder/Primer Storage - Legalities and Solutions

[Great-Kazoo]

Jim,

My OP intended to seek clarification on two issues, safety and legality, in the context of storing primers and powders in a private residence. A question to the local reloading supply shop *might* be helpful in terms of the safety issue, but doubtful they would be knowledgeable about laws pertaining to private residence storage.

What I've found interesting thus far is that no one has addressed the primer limitation issue. If my understanding is correct, then anyone storing more than 10,000 primers in their home is quite possibly violating the law and exposing themselves to possible insurance problems in the event of making a claim. Rather than address this directly, the responses so far seem more along the lines of ignoring the issue rather than understanding and confronting it, if needed. That surprises me a bit as it is inconsistent with my general impression of the members here.

I am still seeking information and will, indeed, be making calls to folks in the local FD and elsewhere. Should their questions turn intrusive and personal (as they are likely to do) that will be met with a professional and courteous notice that their questions are irrelevant to the requested information. As suggested upthread, I will report back if I learn anything worthwhile. In the meantime, I hope others who read this and are storing more than the maximum amounts of powder and/or primers will do their own research to conclude, as jerrymrc did, that they are comfortable with their own storage 'situation.'

One place i would not call is your ins company. I'm comfortable with my storage, for now.

I would suggest Non static work mats, and grounding locators since you'll be in the house. If anyone in the family is sensitive to "odors" include an exhaust fan / vet.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting...ecommendations

This is interesting, a Metal lined "spark proof" "exceeds" BATF regs / specs $329 + S&H. But you can never put a price on safety. Might be the answer you're looking for.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Locka...ner/740225.uts

[jerrymrc]

What I've found interesting thus far is that no one has addressed the primer limitation issue. If my understanding is correct, then anyone storing more than 10,000 primers in their home is quite possibly violating the law and exposing themselves to possible insurance problems in the event of making a claim. Rather than address this directly, the responses so far seem more along the lines of ignoring the issue rather than understanding and confronting it, if needed. That surprises me a bit as it is inconsistent with my general impression of the members here.

I think the main reason is because when I was doing my research I never once thought about the number of primers. That thought comes because as a "Haz-mat" item primers and powder are looked at as the same. Until you brought it up I have always looked at both from a weight perspective and not a number.

I can put 50lbs of powder/primers on one ticket. 50lbs of primers is like 70-80,000 or more. I truly believe that when you start digging that you will find that the limitations that you have found in print mainly apply to a business. I do know about the powder limit "for display" that is out there but to be honest when it comes to the insurance issue I look at it as you have it or you don't.

Unless the point of ignition started at the storage site of ones powder and primers it would be a moot point IMO and we have many here in the industry that could chime in on this.

I like to think that common sense applies in that after ones house burns to the ground that some inspector would not be trying to count primers to get over 10,000 to deny a claim. I do not believe that most here are ignoring the issue but take a different look at it because I know I do.

Being one that has these items and also restores cars I have many items that are flammable. I also have taken precautions and have implemented fire control and prevention measures. There are only two outcomes at my place. A fire that is quickly put out and damage is minimal or it all burns to the ground. this has already been proven once here about 13 years ago by one of my children and his training after he screwed up worked and the damage was small.

You have found an issue that you want a black and white answer to and I am afraid that you will only find shades of grey. I wish you luck in your quest and please do give us updates on this.

[jerrymrc]

This is interesting, a Metal lined "spark proof" "exceeds" BATF regs / specs $329 + S&H. But you can never put a price on safety. Might be the answer you're looking for.

I have a Vidmar 3 drawer cabinet that is 14G steel and locks for my storage. It has enough gaps that I consider it "vented". Would not take much to make it "spark proof" and has about 6X the space. It was free. My primers are inside and in 30 cal cans as well. Good thing I saved 2 grand.

[DHC]

I think the main reason is because when I was doing my research I never once thought about the number of primers. That thought comes because as a "Haz-mat" item primers and powder are looked at as the same. Until you brought it up I have always looked at both from a weight perspective and not a number.

I can put 50lbs of powder/primers on one ticket. 50lbs of primers is like 70-80,000 or more. I truly believe that when you start digging that you will find that the limitations that you have found in print mainly apply to a business. I do know about the powder limit "for display" that is out there but to be honest when it comes to the insurance issue I look at it as you have it or you don't.

Unless the point of ignition started at the storage site of ones powder and primers it would be a moot point IMO and we have many here in the industry that could chime in on this.

I like to think that common sense applies in that after ones house burns to the ground that some inspector would not be trying to count primers to get over 10,000 to deny a claim. I do not believe that most here are ignoring the issue but take a different look at it because I know I do.

Being one that has these items and also restores cars I have many items that are flammable. I also have taken precautions and have implemented fire control and prevention measures. There are only two outcomes at my place. A fire that is quickly put out and damage is minimal or it all burns to the ground. this has already been proven once here about 13 years ago by one of my children and his training after he screwed up worked and the damage was small.

You have found an issue that you want a black and white answer to and I am afraid that you will only find shades of grey. I wish you luck in your quest and please do give us updates on this.

You make a number of good points and I readily admit that my concern *may* be unnecessary. For one thing, if the local municipality where one resides has NOT created ordinances patterned after the NFPA publication, or similar, then my concerns would be entirely obviated.

>>I truly believe that when you start digging that you will find that the limitations that you have found in print mainly apply to a business.<<

On this point, I beg to differ. The NFPA guidelines are clearly delineated between "residences" and "commercial establishments" with explicit language directed at each. Here are several relevant paragraphs copied from NFPA 495:

11-5.3 No more than 25,000 small arms primers may be transported in a private vehicle.

11-5.4 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be stored in residences.

11-5.5 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be displayed in commercial establishments.

11-5.6 Commercial stocks of small arms primers shall be stored as follows: .....(see NFPA 495 for details)

With regard to "commercial" businesses, it addresses how primers are to be "displayed" and how they are to be "stored" as separate guidelines. Like you, I've noted practices at several commercial businesses in the area (back when they had available product for sale and "displayed") that appear to be in violation of the NFPA guidelines - which raises some interesting questions.

Regarding residences, however, I am pretty clear on the language, and intent, of paragraph 11-5.4. There cannot be much doubt that a maximum limit of 10,000 primers may be stored in residences per this document. If the NFPA document carries any legal authority (either directly or adopted) then it is sensible to at least be aware of the prescribed limitation.

I think the "grey" are you mention is the fact there are still too many 'if's' to allow any black-and-white answers at this stage. I will report back as I dig into this more deeply and assuming the information I gather is useful.

[Great-Kazoo]

I have a Vidmar 3 drawer cabinet that is 14G steel and locks for my storage. It has enough gaps that I consider it "vented". Would not take much to make it "spark proof" and has about 6X the space. It was free. My primers are inside and in 30 cal cans as well. Good thing I saved 2 grand.

Which is why i built my own.The OP is chasing his tail over technicalities, so i provided a link for a BATFE "Approved" storage unit. Cannot get more compliant than that.

You make a number of good points and I readily admit that my concern *may* be unnecessary. For one thing, if the local municipality where one resides has NOT created ordinances patterned after the NFPA publication, or similar, then my concerns would be entirely obviated.

>>I truly believe that when you start digging that you will find that the limitations that you have found in print mainly apply to a business.<<

On this point, I beg to differ. The NFPA guidelines are clearly delineated between "residences" and "commercial establishments" with explicit language directed at each. Here are several relevant paragraphs copied from NFPA 495:



With regard to "commercial" businesses, it addresses how primers are to be "displayed" and how they are to be "stored" as separate guidelines. Like you, I've noted practices at several commercial businesses in the area (back when they had available product for sale and "displayed") that appear to be in violation of the NFPA guidelines - which raises some interesting questions.

Regarding residences, however, I am pretty clear on the language, and intent, of paragraph 11-5.4. There cannot be much doubt that a maximum limit of 10,000 primers may be stored in residences per this document. If the NFPA document carries any legal authority (either directly or adopted) then it is sensible to at least be aware of the prescribed limitation.

I think the "grey" are you mention is the fact there are still too many 'if's' to allow any black-and-white answers at this stage. I will report back as I dig into this more deeply and assuming the information I gather is useful.

My suggestions

1- store 9K of primers in 1 area, other primers elsewhere

2- Same for powder

3- Consider building or buying a 10 x 10 shed, out building. Insulate it and make that your hazardous materials storage.

4- relax , take a step back and do what you feel comfortable with.

My FD, when asked, said, As long as the material is contained in secure, fire proof cabinets they're GTG.

One other item regarding the FD, Zoning and you. Having delt with them for a business in larimer cty i will say. If your area looks clean, organized and materials stored safely, no one is going to care or press any "fine print" . That's for commercial property, residential, unless someone calls the FD you will never see them. Don't raise any Red Flags. The more you dig the more someone takes an interest.

[DHC]

As I mentioned earlier, I'll update this thread as I learn more. The first thing I wanted to determine is whether NFPA 495 is applicable to my residence. I live in the municipality of Centennial. A review of the Centennial Municipal Code produces Article 7 as follows:

Sec. 18-7-10. International Fire Code adopted.

(a) The International Fire Code, 2009 Edition, 2nd printing, as published by the International Code Council, 500 New Jersey Avenue, NW, 6th Floor, Washington, DC 20001, Chapters 1 through 45 inclusive and Appendices B, C and J only ("IFC"), is hereby adopted by reference as the City of Centennial Fire Code as if fully set out in this Article with the additions, deletions, insertions and changes as set forth in this Article.

AND

Sec. 18-7- 40. Penalties for violation of International Fire Code.

It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to erect, construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, improve, remove, convert or demolish, equip, use, occupy or maintain any building or structure or cause or permit the same to be done in violation of this code. In addition to other sanctions set forth in the IFC, a person or entity that violates the IFC may be fined in an amount not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000.00) or imprisoned for a term not to exceed one (1) year, or both such fine and imprisonment, as more fully set forth in Section 1-4-10 of the Municipal Code.
(Ord. 2011-O-07 §1)

This led me to the International Fire Code, 2009 edition, which states:

3306.1 General. Indoor storage and display of black powder, smokeless propellants and small arms ammunition shall comply with this section and NFPA 495.

This leads us back to NFPA 495, chapter 11, which states:

11-5.4 No more than 10,000 small arms primers may be stored in residences.

My reading of this is clear. If a person is storing more than 10,000 primers in their residence in the City of Centennial they are in clear violation of the Municipal Code and subject to a fine and/or imprisonment.

A quick check of the Town of Windsor where you live Jim indicates no adoption of the IFC, so you may not have the same legal considerations as others. I also quickly looked at Colorado Springs where jerrymrc lives and it looks like Colorado Springs has adopted the same code as Centennial, reference their Ordinance 11-41, paragraph 8-4-102 Adoption of Fire Code and which also contains penalties of a fine and/or imprisonment. My strong suspicion is that a great many municipalities in urban areas will have similar ordinances as Centennial and Colorado Springs and whose residents are subject to the limitations prescribed in the NFPA.

I should think this would be of some interest to the members of this site. Perhaps most members here were already aware of this issue, but I have seen little evidence of it and I did a pretty thorough search of the site looking for previous posts on the topic prior to making my initial post.

There is still more digging to do. I'll report back if I find anything worthwhile.

[rondog]

I have an old heavy-duty Steelcase 4-drawer office filing cabinet that locks, and I keep my powder and primers locked up in the bottom two drawers of it. Also comes in handy for filing all kinds of papers and documents. These can be found at used office furniture joints, thrift stores, junk stores, garage sales, Craigslist, etc. Any lock shop can make keys for them from the number on the lock front.

[Great-Kazoo]

My reading of this is clear. If a person is storing more than 10,000 primers in their residence in the City of Centennial they are in clear violation of the Municipal Code and subject to a fine and/or imprisonment.

I should think this would be of some interest to the members of this site. Perhaps most members here were already aware of this issue, but I have seen little evidence of it and I did a pretty thorough search of the site looking for previous posts on the topic prior to making my initial post.

How much more digging is going to change the info you have? You've found the answer, multiple times . You either store components safely and comfortably or you don't.
Have you checked the City's ordinances regarding gas and propane storage? You're probably in violation without knowing it.

[DHC]

My reading of this is clear. If a person is storing more than 10,000 primers in their residence in the City of Centennial they are in clear violation of the Municipal Code and subject to a fine and/or imprisonment.

I should think this would be of some interest to the members of this site. Perhaps most members here were already aware of this issue, but I have seen little evidence of it and I did a pretty thorough search of the site looking for previous posts on the topic prior to making my initial post.

How much more digging is going to change the info you have? You've found the answer, multiple times . You either store components safely and comfortably or you don't.
Have you checked the City's ordinances regarding gas and propane storage? You're Probably in violation of those too.

Jim,

>>You've found the answer, multiple times .<<

No, actually I hadn't. Until I was able to confirm that my municipality has adopted the IFC/NFPA it was not clear there were ANY legal restrictions/consequences. Now that has become clear - BUT - there remain other areas of uncertainty, such as whether or not there are risks to insurance coverage.

>>You either store components safely and comfortably or you don't.<<

Not sure what you mean by "comfortably," but you obviously missed an important point from my initial post about storing powder and primers LEGALLY as well. Surely you do not encourage that someone fail to follow local ordinances - correct? Along those same lines, you would not promote ignorance of the laws that might subject someone to legal penalties including possible loss of liberties - correct?

>>Have you checked the City's ordinances regarding gas and propane storage? You're Probably in violation of those too.<<

In response to your rhetorical question - if I were interested in "gas and propane storage," I would have asked about it - though probably not here as it would be inconsistent with the theme and expressed interests of the site.

Jim, You have a clear POV and I appreciate your contributions. I would not have thought of purchasing old cabinets and modifying them to meet the safety requirements and it is a good idea. Thanks for that.

OTOH, you lack the perspective I, and possibly others, have of consideration for the full weight of legal consequences. As there has been little, or no, definitive nexus to tie municipal code and ordinances (with attendant penalties) to the NFPA, I felt that was worthwhile to do. If you do not - great.

Take care.

[jerrymrc]

I will not go any further but

I also quickly looked at Colorado Springs where jerrymrc lives

I have a COS address but I live in El paso county, unincorporated so the sources I checked were the local volunteer fire dept and the county. I want nothing to do with the city.