My wet blanket for Memorial Day.

[cofi]

i think theres much better ways to channel your frustration with the government......get involved in the election process canvass for the candidate you like etc....

that flag stands for our COUNTRY it doesnt matter what asshole is at the helm of the ship

[Ronin13]

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.

I understand your confusion on the subject- and sorry for the derail... First off, once we leave Afghanistan (if they are not fit to secure their own country for themselves) the BGs will come back in and take over. There are already shadow government folks in place in many of the provinces throughout the country, the only reason they're not in complete control is because of ISAF and NATO (we're not the only ones there). Believe me, as it was my job to study up on all the implications and history of that *wonderful* (/sarcasm) nation, if our mission (consequently it would be the Afghan government's as well) fails, I promise you it will fall back into the hands of those who harbor ill will toward our country, our allies, and our very way of life. It will become a safe haven/training ground for terrorism, and we all remember what kind of missions they can plan and command & control when they have a country that essentially gives them free reign and freedom of movement.

Iraq- well this has been discussed in great detail, so I'll be brief: They posed a potential clear and present danger to the United States and our allies. No ifs, butts, or reading it another way. That was a preemptive attack, and for the right reasons. WMDs? You bet. Intent with those WMDs? Who knows for sure- use, pressure, or sell to fellow enemies. Either way, it was in ours and others best interests that Saddam was removed from power. Not saying I agree with the whole nation building idea, but that bog is pretty deep and hard to wade in- you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ideally we would like to be able to defeat our enemies and make sure that a new enemy to the US doesn't grow back in the void left.

Now to the OP... as I understand it, the reasons for burning a flag legitimately would be if it is no longer serviceable or suitable to fly... so you burned a perfectly good flag? Or was it damaged to the point where it would be disrespectful to fly it? If the former, I also am confused as to why you destroyed it, instead of boxing it up and waiting for your pride in your nation to return. Also- the flag represents us all, not just the governing powers that be, or the half of the country asleep at the wheel that votes. I still think the flag represents the ideas that founded this nation, that it stands for rights, freedom, liberty, etc., not the piece of shit who currently occupies the WH, not the congress that lacks the testicular fortitude to stand up to his anti-Constitution BS, and certainly not the state government that thinks that they can just shred that sacred document line by line.

[TheBelly]

the problem is that I no longer see those sacrifices as being "to preserve the liberty and way of life we enjoy here in America" because I don't believe they have (they may have been intended to, but that's just not how things have turned out).

Zund, you may be a great guy, but this I take a pretty severe exception to this. I've been a part of both major fronts to the current war (during the grittiest parts of both, and in the worst areas of both), and I love the fact that I get to wake up every day and do it again. I will serve until my legs can't carry me and my heart stops beating.

I don't know if you've ever served OUR country, but that little quoted snippet sounds like you're actually NOT grateful for what has been done to allow you the continued freedom to say whatever the eff you want.

Disagree with the reasons (for war) all you want, but please don't ever say that the sacrifices of a few don't make an impact. If you disagree, please visit your local VA hospital. Or, better yet, go visit Arlington.

(mods, I'm ready for my peepee smacking)

[tmleadr03]

I understand your confusion on the subject- and sorry for the derail... First off, once we leave Afghanistan (if they are not fit to secure their own country for themselves) the BGs will come back in and take over. There are already shadow government folks in place in many of the provinces throughout the country, the only reason they're not in complete control is because of ISAF and NATO (we're not the only ones there). Believe me, as it was my job to study up on all the implications and history of that *wonderful* (/sarcasm) nation, if our mission (consequently it would be the Afghan government's as well) fails, I promise you it will fall back into the hands of those who harbor ill will toward our country, our allies, and our very way of life. It will become a safe haven/training ground for terrorism, and we all remember what kind of missions they can plan and command & control when they have a country that essentially gives them free reign and freedom of movement.

Iraq- well this has been discussed in great detail, so I'll be brief: They posed a potential clear and present danger to the United States and our allies. No ifs, butts, or reading it another way. That was a preemptive attack, and for the right reasons. WMDs? You bet. Intent with those WMDs? Who knows for sure- use, pressure, or sell to fellow enemies. Either way, it was in ours and others best interests that Saddam was removed from power. Not saying I agree with the whole nation building idea, but that bog is pretty deep and hard to wade in- you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ideally we would like to be able to defeat our enemies and make sure that a new enemy to the US doesn't grow back in the void left.

Now to the OP... as I understand it, the reasons for burning a flag legitimately would be if it is no longer serviceable or suitable to fly... so you burned a perfectly good flag? Or was it damaged to the point where it would be disrespectful to fly it? If the former, I also am confused as to why you destroyed it, instead of boxing it up and waiting for your pride in your nation to return. Also- the flag represents us all, not just the governing powers that be, or the half of the country asleep at the wheel that votes. I still think the flag represents the ideas that founded this nation, that it stands for rights, freedom, liberty, etc., not the piece of shit who currently occupies the WH, not the congress that lacks the testicular fortitude to stand up to his anti-Constitution BS, and certainly not the state government that thinks that they can just shred that sacred document line by line.

You can not fight a birth count. Can you tell me with your studying of the area what nation was able to tame, successfully, Afghanistan?

Here is what we have actually done in the middle east. Created a power vacuum. For all his evils, and yes Saddam was an evil dictator, he stabilized the area.

As to what we should have done in Afghanistan? Go in, blow up every training camp we found, kill every terrorist we could find, salt the land and declare victory with a warning to every other nation out there. Harbor people who would attack the US and we will come rape your land and walk away.

Honestly, I don't care if there were WMDs (and I think there were probably some there) we should have let Saddam be. We got rid of him and now we have a power vacuum which all the other nations in the area are wanting to fill. So we are stuck there because as soon as we leave they will fill the void and be more powerful then before.

[KestrelBike]

Yep. I always felt burning the flag was disrespectful to our great nation but lately I'm not so sure it deserves the respect it once did.

But burning the flag is the only proper way of disposing it. Obviously the manner in which it is burned means everything ie reverentially as opposed to burning stamping in a snackbar protest.

[Ronin13]

You can not fight a birth count. Can you tell me with your studying of the area what nation was able to tame, successfully, Afghanistan?

Here is what we have actually done in the middle east. Created a power vacuum. For all his evils, and yes Saddam was an evil dictator, he stabilized the area.

As to what we should have done in Afghanistan? Go in, blow up every training camp we found, kill every terrorist we could find, salt the land and declare victory with a warning to every other nation out there. Harbor people who would attack the US and we will come rape your land and walk away.

Honestly, I don't care if there were WMDs (and I think there were probably some there) we should have let Saddam be. We got rid of him and now we have a power vacuum which all the other nations in the area are wanting to fill. So we are stuck there because as soon as we leave they will fill the void and be more powerful then before.

I know exactly what you're saying, I'm simply stating the reasons we're there and some of the good that comes from fighting there. As far as "taming" the nation, I can name one- themselves. That's the point, by defeating the taliban we weren't trying to conquer Afghanistan (history shows that no one has done this, ever, not even Alexander), we were only trying to liberate them from tyranny- in theory. I agree that we should have kicked their ass and walked away, but we haven't really done that since WWI. Nation building (not a fan because we then become beat cops) has been the name of the game, rebuilding and trying to make friends with our vanquished foes (See: Germany and Japan). It doesn't always work out, but it seems to be policy now. And the devil's advocate answer to the Saddam thing (Again, not disagreeing at all with you, just providing another view point to consider)- you'd be singing a different tune on Iraq if he had used WMDs on someone other than his own people, or sold chemical weapons to Al Qaeda.

[wreave]

One of the ways our government wastes money is they buy very well made and expensive Valley Forge flags by the train car load, fly them over the capital for a single day and box the flags up with certificates of authenticity to hand out like candy.

Many years ago my uncle gave me one of these flags as a birthday gift. I've flow it proudly for years and frankly it was much nicer than the ones you buy at Walmart (they aren't printed, they're sewn together strips of red and white heavy cotton with a piece of blue with embroidered stars on it. Very nice quality).

Couple of minor corrections:

1. These flags aren't flown over the Capitol for a single day. Not even a single minute. They start the day on the roof with a box of flags and run them up and down the pole till they've done all the flags that are scheduled to fly that day.

2. The flags are not expensive, but they do cost money. Anyone can order one.

http://www.aoc.gov/trades-and-areas-...l-flag-program
http://lamborn.house.gov/flag-requests/

They range from $13-24. You have to fill out a form and send it in with a check several weeks in advance. Not sure if that price reflects the true cost, but there is a change. I'm sure congresscritters do give some away, but in the scheme of things that's a pretty cheap giveaway.

Not sure that burning your flag and refusing to fly it on flag holidays (Memorial Day, Flag Day, Independence Day, Veterans Day) is a particularly meaningful protest, but I respect your right to burn the flag in public or private.

[Dingo]

I'm a cynical bastard, and I think we are heading in a very dangerous, oppressive, and violent direction. But I still am proud to be an American, regardless of the fecal matter currently deposited in the Oval Office. Everything is cyclic, and nothing is static - the entropy effect touches all. Even though things are degrading, the people who founded this country fought and died for an ideal which is still very dear to my heart. Doesn't matter who the captain may be, I'm still glad to be aboard the ship and I'll take it in preference to any other country.

[Ah Pook]

Just a clarification, there is a difference between retiring an American flag and burning one.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just a clarification, there is a difference between retiring an American flag and burning one.

As is the difference between telling your neighbor why you no longer fly it and changing the subject. But hey i'm Pious.