My wet blanket for Memorial Day.

[Birddog1911]

snip...the problem is that I no longer see those sacrifices as being "to preserve the liberty and way of life we enjoy here in America" because I don't believe they have (they may have been intended to, but that's just not how things have turned out).

snip...

I can't help but take exception to this. Who are you to say what they sacrificed their lives for?

[tmleadr03]

what he said is exactly what melvin said to me before he was banned. basically "our sacrifice meant nothing, we just thought it did" WTF?

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.

[Great-Kazoo]

I can see your point, but a polite neighbor doesn't lay a heavy trip on someone just making polite conversation.

But hey, I guess I'm not as pious as you Jim ... weren't you blocking me anyway?

PIOUS?? No son i have convictions and beliefs. Those who know me(not from posting) but actually met , friends, family and NEIGHBORS . They all know where i stand, my OPINION and my BELIEFS.
Unlike you, i have the back bone to tell my neighbor why i did what i did. Not CHANGE THE SUBJECT. THAT lacks conviction.

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.

ABSOLUTELY I joined even though i disagreed with the .gov policy's . It was either join or be drafted.

Iraq & Afghanistan?? It's lost it's focus and IMHO. We should have regime changed Saudi Arabia. Those were the ones who masterminded the 9/11 attacks.
HOWEVER those are all topics for other discussions.

[Byte Stryke]

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.

agree

and while I do not (personally) agree with Zund's decision to burn the flag... I'll fight ya for it.

[Ronin13]

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.

I understand your confusion on the subject- and sorry for the derail... First off, once we leave Afghanistan (if they are not fit to secure their own country for themselves) the BGs will come back in and take over. There are already shadow government folks in place in many of the provinces throughout the country, the only reason they're not in complete control is because of ISAF and NATO (we're not the only ones there). Believe me, as it was my job to study up on all the implications and history of that *wonderful* (/sarcasm) nation, if our mission (consequently it would be the Afghan government's as well) fails, I promise you it will fall back into the hands of those who harbor ill will toward our country, our allies, and our very way of life. It will become a safe haven/training ground for terrorism, and we all remember what kind of missions they can plan and command & control when they have a country that essentially gives them free reign and freedom of movement.

Iraq- well this has been discussed in great detail, so I'll be brief: They posed a potential clear and present danger to the United States and our allies. No ifs, butts, or reading it another way. That was a preemptive attack, and for the right reasons. WMDs? You bet. Intent with those WMDs? Who knows for sure- use, pressure, or sell to fellow enemies. Either way, it was in ours and others best interests that Saddam was removed from power. Not saying I agree with the whole nation building idea, but that bog is pretty deep and hard to wade in- you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ideally we would like to be able to defeat our enemies and make sure that a new enemy to the US doesn't grow back in the void left.

Now to the OP... as I understand it, the reasons for burning a flag legitimately would be if it is no longer serviceable or suitable to fly... so you burned a perfectly good flag? Or was it damaged to the point where it would be disrespectful to fly it? If the former, I also am confused as to why you destroyed it, instead of boxing it up and waiting for your pride in your nation to return. Also- the flag represents us all, not just the governing powers that be, or the half of the country asleep at the wheel that votes. I still think the flag represents the ideas that founded this nation, that it stands for rights, freedom, liberty, etc., not the piece of shit who currently occupies the WH, not the congress that lacks the testicular fortitude to stand up to his anti-Constitution BS, and certainly not the state government that thinks that they can just shred that sacred document line by line.

[tmleadr03]

I understand your confusion on the subject- and sorry for the derail... First off, once we leave Afghanistan (if they are not fit to secure their own country for themselves) the BGs will come back in and take over. There are already shadow government folks in place in many of the provinces throughout the country, the only reason they're not in complete control is because of ISAF and NATO (we're not the only ones there). Believe me, as it was my job to study up on all the implications and history of that *wonderful* (/sarcasm) nation, if our mission (consequently it would be the Afghan government's as well) fails, I promise you it will fall back into the hands of those who harbor ill will toward our country, our allies, and our very way of life. It will become a safe haven/training ground for terrorism, and we all remember what kind of missions they can plan and command & control when they have a country that essentially gives them free reign and freedom of movement.

Iraq- well this has been discussed in great detail, so I'll be brief: They posed a potential clear and present danger to the United States and our allies. No ifs, butts, or reading it another way. That was a preemptive attack, and for the right reasons. WMDs? You bet. Intent with those WMDs? Who knows for sure- use, pressure, or sell to fellow enemies. Either way, it was in ours and others best interests that Saddam was removed from power. Not saying I agree with the whole nation building idea, but that bog is pretty deep and hard to wade in- you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ideally we would like to be able to defeat our enemies and make sure that a new enemy to the US doesn't grow back in the void left.

Now to the OP... as I understand it, the reasons for burning a flag legitimately would be if it is no longer serviceable or suitable to fly... so you burned a perfectly good flag? Or was it damaged to the point where it would be disrespectful to fly it? If the former, I also am confused as to why you destroyed it, instead of boxing it up and waiting for your pride in your nation to return. Also- the flag represents us all, not just the governing powers that be, or the half of the country asleep at the wheel that votes. I still think the flag represents the ideas that founded this nation, that it stands for rights, freedom, liberty, etc., not the piece of shit who currently occupies the WH, not the congress that lacks the testicular fortitude to stand up to his anti-Constitution BS, and certainly not the state government that thinks that they can just shred that sacred document line by line.

You can not fight a birth count. Can you tell me with your studying of the area what nation was able to tame, successfully, Afghanistan?

Here is what we have actually done in the middle east. Created a power vacuum. For all his evils, and yes Saddam was an evil dictator, he stabilized the area.

As to what we should have done in Afghanistan? Go in, blow up every training camp we found, kill every terrorist we could find, salt the land and declare victory with a warning to every other nation out there. Harbor people who would attack the US and we will come rape your land and walk away.

Honestly, I don't care if there were WMDs (and I think there were probably some there) we should have let Saddam be. We got rid of him and now we have a power vacuum which all the other nations in the area are wanting to fill. So we are stuck there because as soon as we leave they will fill the void and be more powerful then before.

[Ronin13]

You can not fight a birth count. Can you tell me with your studying of the area what nation was able to tame, successfully, Afghanistan?

Here is what we have actually done in the middle east. Created a power vacuum. For all his evils, and yes Saddam was an evil dictator, he stabilized the area.

As to what we should have done in Afghanistan? Go in, blow up every training camp we found, kill every terrorist we could find, salt the land and declare victory with a warning to every other nation out there. Harbor people who would attack the US and we will come rape your land and walk away.

Honestly, I don't care if there were WMDs (and I think there were probably some there) we should have let Saddam be. We got rid of him and now we have a power vacuum which all the other nations in the area are wanting to fill. So we are stuck there because as soon as we leave they will fill the void and be more powerful then before.

I know exactly what you're saying, I'm simply stating the reasons we're there and some of the good that comes from fighting there. As far as "taming" the nation, I can name one- themselves. That's the point, by defeating the taliban we weren't trying to conquer Afghanistan (history shows that no one has done this, ever, not even Alexander), we were only trying to liberate them from tyranny- in theory. I agree that we should have kicked their ass and walked away, but we haven't really done that since WWI. Nation building (not a fan because we then become beat cops) has been the name of the game, rebuilding and trying to make friends with our vanquished foes (See: Germany and Japan). It doesn't always work out, but it seems to be policy now. And the devil's advocate answer to the Saddam thing (Again, not disagreeing at all with you, just providing another view point to consider)- you'd be singing a different tune on Iraq if he had used WMDs on someone other than his own people, or sold chemical weapons to Al Qaeda.

[brokenscout]

The last "Real" war was WWII, It probably won't be long till there is no American flag and we have some United Nations , one world flag.

This is not a black and white topic. We all joined for our own reasons. I wanted to serve this country, that's why I went and stood on the yellow foot prints. My service was to keep this country safe. To protect our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our still being in Afghanistan is protecting our way of life.


I have trouble seeing how our attack on Iraq protected our way of life.


10 years later and what have we won for our freedoms over there? Our men are dying over there. Why? It for damn sure doesn't make us any safer.

But that is clearly not an issue with the men and women in the military, but with the political machine who controls them.