ZIMMERMAN TRIAL LIVE LINK

[tmckay2]

Let me get this straight - just because you happen to carry you should keep your head down, eyes averted, eat shit and let anyone do anything that doesn't directly place you in a position of imminent loss of life just because they might break stupid? The guy was Neighborhood Watch who's charge was to look for suspicious activity, I won't consider profiling because it's my opinion if you want to look/act like a "gangsta" don't be shocked when people think you are a "gangsta". As a member of my community/neighborhood I have every right to want to know what someone is up to when they appear to be suspicious, are acting or dressed in a manner that makes me think they are up to no good. I choose not to wait until I've been shot, attacked, burglarized, etc. before I watch them and/or politely ask exactly why they are there and what they are up to. I've been asked and it doesn't bother me a bit to explain why I'm wandering around in a place or at a time that would make someone suspicious of my intent. Never once did it occur to me to attack that person and punch them in the face for trying to make the place they live safer, in fact I thanked them for their involvement. It shouldn't bother or offend any rational person though I wouldn't push it beyond a polite inquiry and notify the proper authorities if they take exception as I would consider that confirmation of my suspicion. While I believe carrying to be a grave responsibility and a last resort in extreme circumstance, the fact that I carry (or not) does not dissuade me from what I consider reasonable inquiry to ensure the safety of myself, my neighbors and my community. No I'm not LEO and I don't have a "hero complex", I'm a responsible member of my community under no delusion that the world isn't filled with scumbags and ne'er-do-wells. I further don't call that being a "badass" or thumping my chest, I don't want to fight and damn sure don't want to shoot anyone but I certainly don't want to live in a place where no one wants to "get involved" to keep it from becoming a shithole. Isn't that the point of Neighborhood Watch to begin with? Let me propose a different scenario; "Hi I'm George with the Neighborhood Watch, how are you this evening?" "Oh hi George I'm Trayvon. I'm staying with my Dad's girlfriend for a few days and had a craving for some Skittles, headed back to the house." "Nice to meet you Trayvon, I like Skittles too, maybe I'll go get some. Have a nice evening." "You too George and thanks for keeping an eye on the neighborhood."

bold statement - correct. otherwise you roll the dice. if youd like to that its a free country, just don't be surprised when you end up like zimmerman, or like my buddy who did time for his bar fight incident.

the point of the neighborhood watch is to alert police to suspicious activity, not engage a suspicious person. if you actively see someone break into a house or assault someone its a bit different. no point in approaching someone walking down the street. what do you expect to gain from that? you think they are going to say, "well yes sir, i was about to rob a place, thanks for stopping me?" either the person is up to no good and therefore is going to cause you some trouble you don't want, or they are simply walking down the street. either way, approaching them and talking to them won't necessarily tell you anything, but it may get you in trouble. watch from a very safe distance until the police arrive.

[Whistler]

bold statement - correct. otherwise you roll the dice. if youd like to that its a free country, just don't be surprised when you end up like zimmerman, or like my buddy who did time for his bar fight incident.

the point of the neighborhood watch is to alert police to suspicious activity, not engage a suspicious person. if you actively see someone break into a house or assault someone its a bit different. no point in approaching someone walking down the street. what do you expect to gain from that? you think they are going to say, "well yes sir, i was about to rob a place, thanks for stopping me?" either the person is up to no good and therefore is going to cause you some trouble you don't want, or they are simply walking down the street. either way, approaching them and talking to them won't necessarily tell you anything, but it may get you in trouble. watch from a very safe distance until the police arrive.

I suppose we have different views of the world, wrote a more detailed reply but deleted it in favor of simply disagreeing with your view, perhaps I'm an anachronism. Things happen and I'm not wired to walk through life worried some random idiot is going to be the end, you can go at any time for any reason or none at all. I am however wired to believe that trying to improve my lot along with that of my neighbors is about the best you can hope to do while you still breath.

How is that relevant? Maybe George was raised that way as well, it's a view I hadn't seen represented in this discussion.

[tmckay2]

bettering the world doesn't have to involve confrontations while carrying a gun. in fact, bettering the world just might have to do with avoiding some situations, particularly when carrying. thats the only point i am trying to make. like i said, trayvon sounds very much like a grade a punk but it really isn't disputed that at the time he wasn't doing anything wrong, other than looking "suspicious" whatever that means. report it, let the authorities handle it, don't get out and risk confrontation. just not smart in my opinion. and in this case i think that is exactly what happened, and unfortunately trayvon (even the punk that we was) paid the ultimate price and a good man like zimmerman will also pay a hefty price. and why? for what reason? this all could have easily been avoided and i think it should serve as a lesson to those of us who do carry.

I suppose we have different views of the world, wrote a more detailed reply but deleted it in favor of simply disagreeing with your view, perhaps I'm an anachronism. Things happen and I'm not wired to walk through life worried some random idiot is going to be the end, you can go at any time for any reason or none at all. I am however wired to believe that trying to improve my lot along with that of my neighbors is about the best you can hope to do while you still breath.

How is that relevant? Maybe George was raised that way as well, it's a view I hadn't seen represented in this discussion.

[Whistler]

bettering the world doesn't have to involve confrontations while carrying a gun. in fact, bettering the world just might have to do with avoiding some situations, particularly when carrying. thats the only point i am trying to make. like i said, trayvon sounds very much like a grade a punk but it really isn't disputed that at the time he wasn't doing anything wrong, other than looking "suspicious" whatever that means. report it, let the authorities handle it, don't get out and risk confrontation. just not smart in my opinion. and in this case i think that is exactly what happened, and unfortunately trayvon (even the punk that we was) paid the ultimate price and a good man like zimmerman will also pay a hefty price. and why? for what reason? this all could have easily been avoided and i think it should serve as a lesson to those of us who do carry.

Don't believe I said anything like confrontation but my point is/was carrying (or not) doesn't change my behavior or what I perceive as right. That was originally addressed at the quote below which I took to be your take on the interaction. I presented a different perspective in which both parties were reasonable and rational while conceding it doesn't always go that way but disagree with you that the interaction should have been avoided at all simply because he happened to be carrying. In this case it went south because as you say Trayvon was a punk but I still don't agree you should avoid the interaction (it's not described as a confrontation and believe it was escalated into one by Trayvon) simply because you happen to be carrying (or not) if you feel it's the "right" thing to do. I took the quote below to mean you believe he only initiated that interaction because he was carrying - "chest thumping" or trying to be a bad ass. You also expressed the opinion he should be punished for what I perceive as being a good neighbor by trying to determine what a person he considered suspicious was actually up to. It ended poorly, sometimes it does but I don't think that was ever his intention and hindsight is 20/20. I don't agree it should serve as a lesson to change your behavior and walk on eggshells if you happen to be carrying the same as I don't think you should change your behavior and walk around with a chip on your shoulder starting crap with everyone you meet because you happen to be carrying. My decision to strike up a conversation or watch someone I deem suspicious has nothing to do with whether or not I am carrying, I just feel it's something I should do to help look out for my neighbors. You obviously feel differently and that is the point of discussion. It's my opinion he likely would have done the same things had he not been carrying and perhaps it would have ended differently but we can agree that we ultimately must take responsibility for our personal choices. I hope that my choices never result in my having to take a life, I hope that your choices never result in another losing theirs.

To your point about him not doing anything wrong, "suspicious" doesn't mean they have to be doing anything wrong but out of place for the circumstance. He was suspicious because the neighborhood had been recently burglarized by young black men. Trayvon was a young black man, unknown to George (who as Neighborhood Watch captain should be mostly familiar with the residents) and concealing his face with a hoodie. Had it been a child as Trayvon was portrayed or a middle-aged fat white guy I don't think he'd have given it a second thought but that is just my opinion. I don't think Zimmerman did anything I'd consider aggressive or confrontational but was tragically forced to take the life of young man who chose to escalate the situation to violence with an armed man. Could he have walked away? Certainly. Should he? We disagree. We'll never know what really happened but then that's not what this trial is about.

ive even seen a lot of people thump their chests about their "cool" carry stories where they almost pulled it out, they flashed it to somebody to scare them, and whatever else and rarely do i hear the people say they were extremely polite and very kindly tried to avoid confrontation. usually, whether they are BS stories or not, it ends up being the storyteller trying to be a bad ass and either raising the tension or at least not actively diffusing it, and then they think they are cool because they almost pulled their carry? some people apparently need to go back to training. carrying should not be taken lightly at all and short of being actively attacked of no fault of your own or another person being beaten to death, it should not even be considered to be pulled.

[mtnhack]

...

... I don't think Zimmerman did anything I'd consider aggressive or confrontational but was tragically forced to take the life of young man who chose to escalate the situation to violence with an armed man. Could he have walked away? Certainly. Should he? We disagree. We'll never know what really happened but then that's not what this trial is about.

We don't know what really happened- either way.

Maybe G.Z. jumped on him thinking, "I'm gonna fuck this n-bomb up! I know he's a fuckin punk gonna break into our houses and steal our shit."

Or Maybe Martin said to his girlfriend (on the phone at the time), " Hang on baby, I gotta fuck up this little old fucker who's been following me, teach this little bitch a lesson!"

My guess it is somewhere closer to the latter. TM starts to run, Zimmerman follows and Martin turns on him and the fight. However, if he would have listened to the dispatch, he wouldn't be in this shit, period. This was not imminent danger that needed his immediate intervention. Let the police do what they are paid for.

[Whistler]

Originally Posted by Whistler ...


... I don't think Zimmerman did anything I'd consider aggressive or confrontational but was tragically forced to take the life of young man who chose to escalate the situation to violence with an armed man. Could he have walked away? Certainly. Should he? We disagree. We'll never know what really happened but then that's not what this trial is about.

We don't know what really happened- either way.

Maybe G.Z. jumped on him thinking, "I'm gonna fuck this n-bomb up! I know he's a fuckin punk gonna break into our houses and steal our shit."

Or Maybe Martin said to his girlfriend (on the phone at the time), " Hang on baby, I gotta fuck up this little old fucker who's been following me, teach this little bitch a lesson!"

My guess it is somewhere closer to the latter. TM starts to run, Zimmerman follows and Martin turns on him and the fight. However, if he would have listened to the dispatch, he wouldn't be in this shit, period. This was not imminent danger that needed his immediate intervention. Let the police do what they are paid for.

Yup we'll never know and you're right, had he just gone home he "wouldn't be in this shit". We can disagree on the rest.

[battle_sight_zero]

My guess it is somewhere closer to the latter. TM starts to run, Zimmerman follows and Martin turns on him and the fight. However, if he would have listened to the dispatch, he wouldn't be in this shit, period. This was not imminent danger that needed his immediate intervention. Let the police do what they are paid for.[/QUOTE]

Mr. ZIMMERMAN has stated he was walking back to his car when he was attacked. As I said in an earlier post Zimmerman in my thoughts was being vigilant. Many of us are vigilant, sure we are not involved in defensive situations. Heck when I was in the service I was attacked and stabbed by three middle eastern men for no reason other than being American right out of the blue. My point you never know when aggressive behavior will arise, and that is why I CC. Not going to judge Zimmerman for caring for his neighborhood.

[mtnhack]

Mr. ZIMMERMAN has stated he was walking back to his car when he was attacked. As I said in an earlier post Zimmerman in my thoughts was being vigilant. Many of us are vigilant, sure we are not involved in defensive situations. Heck when I was in the service I was attacked and stabbed by three middle eastern men for no reason other than being American right out of the blue. My point you never know when aggressive behavior will arise, and that is why I CC. Not going to judge Zimmerman for caring for his neighborhood.

The only reason I would question that statement from Zimmerman would be because the timeline I saw had Martin on the phone during the same minute that a witness called 911 about a fight.

[Hound]

However, if he would have listened to the dispatch, he wouldn't be in this shit, period. This was not imminent danger that needed his immediate intervention. Let the police do what they are paid for.

This is the beginning and end of it for me, period. ZM could have backed down. In the same way I expect cops to back down and de-escalate when possible, any of us CCing should also. If he had been waiting for the cop (who showed up quickly) he would have been on the road, not in the back of the apts. If this had happened in front of the Apts I might support ZM (depending on what happened). It is hard to defend being in the back for any reason if he thought the guy was dangerous. The cops had been notified, at that point, good job, he is being vigilant. I don't care about all the 911 calls before (just being vigilant). It is when he followed TM that he loses me. If he had just kept him in sight but not close enough to confront, maybe, but it immediatly goes grey at that point. Once there is ANY confrontation, at that point, ZM is in the wrong. He put himself in harms way taking responsibility for ANYTHING that happens after that. Let the cops do their job.

Anybody CCing should know to be non-confrontational unless there is a clear and present danger. Looking suspicious...does not meet that bar.

Remove yourself from confrontation.

I do have to say the prosecuting wittnesses.... Wow. Not what anybody wants to see in a trail like this.

[Hound]

This is the beginning and end of it for me, period. ZM could have backed down. In the same way I expect cops to back down and de-escalate when possible, any of us CCing should also. If he had been waiting for the cop (who showed up quickly) he would have been on the road, not in the back of the apts. If this had happened in front of the Apts I might support ZM (depending on what happened). It is hard to defend being in the back for any reason if he thought the guy was dangerous. The cops had been notified, at that point, good job, he is being vigilant. I don't care about all the 911 calls before (just being vigilant). It is when he followed TM that he loses me. If he had just kept him in sight but not close enough to confront, maybe, but it immediatly goes grey at that point. Once there is ANY confrontation, at that point, ZM is in the wrong. He put himself in harms way taking responsibility for ANYTHING that happens after that. Let the cops do their job.

Anybody CCing should know to be non-confrontational unless there is a clear and present danger. Looking suspicious...does not meet that bar.

Remove yourself from confrontation.

I do have to say the prosecuting wittnesses.... Wow. Not what anybody wants to see in a trail like this.

ok, they just showed ZM walking through what happened, from his side. That is plausible, stupid but plausible. He should have stayed in his truck but seeing the layout and hearing his story, if I were on the jury I would have doubt at this point. He says he was not following TM which is if'y but there is a reason for what he says he was doing. I missed the 911 call, which should have caught the WHOLE thing according to his story. Since I have not seen/heard that.... One small issue is the fruadian slip where he said he was covering his mounth and nose (meaning ZM was covering TM's mouth and nose) which he corrected himself to state it was the opposite and he was the victim. The forensic evidence is going to be interesting. What position was the gun fired from? At the ground or into the air?