Background checks and trading

[def90]

Where are the FFLs on here? The way I read the law and the way I interpret that it is supposed to work is that you walk into a shop, pay them $10 and they get on their computer and enter the buyers name into NICS, if they pass you can sell the firearm to the guy, if they fail the check you go home and find someone else to sell to.. Where does it say anywhere that the firearm gets transferred to the FFL, entered into their books or that a form 4473 is filled out?

[cysoto]

Where does it say anywhere that the firearm gets transferred to the FFL, entered into their books or that a form 4473 is filled out?

Attachment 30937 A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECK ON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING A SALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL. THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18U.S.C. SEC. 922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HER INVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.

[wctriumph]

As for C&R firearms, What constitutes a C&R? Is it based strictly on age? Or, does the BATFE have a list if C&R qualified firearms? I will also do a google search and see what I can find.

OK, went to the source, here is a link for C&R. Ignore my questions and just go to the link.


http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...ics/index.html

[Great-Kazoo]

Where are the FFLs on here? The way I read the law and the way I interpret that it is supposed to work is that you walk into a shop, pay them $10 and they get on their computer and enter the buyers name into NICS, if they pass you can sell the firearm to the guy, if they fail the check you go home and find someone else to sell to.. Where does it say anywhere that the firearm gets transferred to the FFL, entered into their books or that a form 4473 is filled out?

Attachment 30937 A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECK ON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING A SALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL. THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18U.S.C. SEC. 922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HER INVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.

Thanks, cause the poster above you must have missed the numerous "discussions" regarding any firearm in a LGS being logged in.

[Brian]

Where are the FFLs on here? The way I read the law and the way I interpret that it is supposed to work is that you walk into a shop, pay them $10 and they get on their computer and enter the buyers name into NICS, if they pass you can sell the firearm to the guy, if they fail the check you go home and find someone else to sell to.. Where does it say anywhere that the firearm gets transferred to the FFL, entered into their books or that a form 4473 is filled out?

FFL 07/02 here. I want to revise what I said earlier. Looks like ATF has released updated instructions to us, which means as long as a seller does not "relinquish" the firearm, they can leave with the gun at any point. Don't release your gun to the dealer when you're doing the transfer!

A 4473 is required for all transfers, and logging in/out of FFL books is still required before any FTF transfer can proceed. However, the BGC can happen prior to the transfer, and if the buyer fails, the seller can walk out. The $10 still gets charged to the FFL regardless, and you can bet they are going to want their service fee up front too, regardless of pass/fail.

Also, keep in mind the $10 you pay to CBI is not to the ATF. Colorado requires the $10 fee to pay for its own internal check, because "it's better" than the free federal NICS check, I guess.

For your viewing "pleasure":
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...rough_ffls.pdf

Short version:
1) Buyer fills out 4473
2) FFL checks and records buyer ID, marks handgun/longgun/other (no SN# yet), and runs the BGC. CBI charges $10 at this point
3) If pass, FFL takes gun & confirms SN, enters gun into books, writes the SN# on the 4473, and logs the book out to buyer. Buyer/seller leave happy.
4) If fail, seller takes the gun and leaves. FFL did not take possession. FFL does not enter the gun into the books. 4473 gets filed (without SN/gun info).
5) If the seller ever gives "exclusive possession" to the FFL (not a lawyer but you'd probably have to actually leave to do this), then seller has to pass a BCG to get their gun back. Seller still owns it, just can't take possession. If seller fails BGC, you'll have to work something out with the FFL (likely consignment as mentioned above, or find another buyer).

So it could be worse. Could be a LOT better though.
Be nice to your FFL if you found a good one. This stuff is as much BS for us as it is for you. Also, keep in mind not every FFL does it exactly this way. You can certainly direct them to the linked doc, but don't be a jerk about it.

[jerrymrc]

FFL 07/02 here. I want to revise what I said earlier. Looks like ATF has released updated instructions to us, which means as long as a seller does not "relinquish" the firearm, they can leave with the gun at any point. Don't release your gun to the dealer when you're doing the transfer!

A 4473 is required for all transfers, and logging in/out of FFL books is still required before any FTF transfer can proceed. However, the BGC can happen prior to the transfer, and if the buyer fails, the seller can walk out. The $10 still gets charged to the FFL regardless, and you can bet they are going to want their service fee up front too, regardless of pass/fail.

Also, keep in mind the $10 you pay to CBI is not to the ATF. Colorado requires the $10 fee to pay for its own internal check, because "it's better" than the free federal NICS check, I guess.

For your viewing "pleasure":
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...rough_ffls.pdf

Short version:
1) Buyer fills out 4473
2) FFL checks and records buyer ID, marks handgun/longgun/other (no SN# yet), and runs the BGC. CBI charges $10 at this point
3) If pass, FFL takes gun & confirms SN, enters gun into books, writes the SN# on the 4473, and logs the book out to buyer. Buyer/seller leave happy.
4) If fail, seller takes the gun and leaves. FFL did not take possession. FFL does not enter the gun into the books. 4473 gets filed (without SN/gun info).
5) If the seller ever gives "exclusive possession" to the FFL (not a lawyer but you'd probably have to actually leave to do this), then seller has to pass a BCG to get their gun back. Seller still owns it, just can't take possession. If seller fails BGC, you'll have to work something out with the FFL (likely consignment as mentioned above, or find another buyer).

So it could be worse. Could be a LOT better though.
Be nice to your FFL if you found a good one. This stuff is as much BS for us as it is for you. Also, keep in mind not every FFL does it exactly this way. You can certainly direct them to the linked doc, but don't be a jerk about it.

Thank you for that clarification.

[flogger]

I'm assuming the State will be able to 'modify' the law, as they seem fit, with a stroke of a pen. Is that correct? Another question, as I understand it, when a BGC is completed and the buyer or seller fails, there is no reason given. Does the FFL (doing the BGC) have an obligation to notify the police at any time?

If a felon attempts to purchase a gun, shouldn't something click when a BGC fails? Would the seller be under fire trying to sell to a felon?

[james_bond_007]

Brian: Thank you for chasing down all the details.
I have some comments on the "exclusive possession" clause. Please provide your comments when you have digested mine, below .

I don't believe the seller has to leave the premise to allow "exclusive possession" to occur.
EX:
1) Selling on Consignment- seller retains ownership, but gives "exclusive possession" to the FFL. This may be in the form of a verbal or written contract for the FFL to sell the firearm on behalf of the owner (similar to previous methods). The FFL logs the firearm into his/her A/D list.

2) Background checks taking multiple days - As like earlier this year, sometimes a multi-day backlog can occur in processing BGCs. The seller "could" leave the firearm with the FFL (i.e. give him exclusive possession) to prevent the seller from having to come back a 2nd time when the BCG is finally executed/completed. I believe "exclusive" possession occurs when the seller agrees to leave the firearm in the care of the FFL...not when the seller leaves the premise. The FFL logs the firearm into his/her A/D list.

Further, before taking exclusive possession, an ethical FFL "should" explain the ramifications of the requirement for a BGC and associated costs for the seller, should the FFL need to return the firearm to the seller (viz. buyer's BGC fails or item doesn't sell under the consignment contract), but is under no obligation to do so.

Your thoughts ?

Note: This post is my opinion and is not to be construed as legal advice.

[def90]

Thanks, cause the poster above you must have missed the numerous "discussions" regarding any firearm in a LGS being logged in.

Hey, people have been talking about it but no one at that point had posted the actual language in the bill. I had even read the bill when it was passed and failed to see it at that time so Foff.

[def90]

Attachment 30937 A LICENSED GUN DEALER WHO OBTAINS A BACKGROUND CHECK ON A PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE SHALL RECORD THE TRANSFER, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-102, C.R.S., AND RETAIN THE RECORDS, AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 12-26-103,C.R.S., IN THE SAME MANNER AS WHEN CONDUCTING A SALE, RENTAL, OR EXCHANGE AT RETAIL. THE LICENSED GUN DEALER SHALL COMPLY WITH ALL STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS, INCLUDING 18U.S.C. SEC. 922, AS IF HE OR SHE WERE TRANSFERRING THE FIREARM FROM HIS OR HER INVENTORY TO THE PROSPECTIVE TRANSFEREE.

FFL 07/02 here. I want to revise what I said earlier. Looks like ATF has released updated instructions to us, which means as long as a seller does not "relinquish" the firearm, they can leave with the gun at any point. Don't release your gun to the dealer when you're doing the transfer!

A 4473 is required for all transfers, and logging in/out of FFL books is still required before any FTF transfer can proceed. However, the BGC can happen prior to the transfer, and if the buyer fails, the seller can walk out. The $10 still gets charged to the FFL regardless, and you can bet they are going to want their service fee up front too, regardless of pass/fail.

Also, keep in mind the $10 you pay to CBI is not to the ATF. Colorado requires the $10 fee to pay for its own internal check, because "it's better" than the free federal NICS check, I guess.

For your viewing "pleasure":
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...rough_ffls.pdf

Short version:
1) Buyer fills out 4473
2) FFL checks and records buyer ID, marks handgun/longgun/other (no SN# yet), and runs the BGC. CBI charges $10 at this point
3) If pass, FFL takes gun & confirms SN, enters gun into books, writes the SN# on the 4473, and logs the book out to buyer. Buyer/seller leave happy.
4) If fail, seller takes the gun and leaves. FFL did not take possession. FFL does not enter the gun into the books. 4473 gets filed (without SN/gun info).
5) If the seller ever gives "exclusive possession" to the FFL (not a lawyer but you'd probably have to actually leave to do this), then seller has to pass a BCG to get their gun back. Seller still owns it, just can't take possession. If seller fails BGC, you'll have to work something out with the FFL (likely consignment as mentioned above, or find another buyer).

So it could be worse. Could be a LOT better though.
Be nice to your FFL if you found a good one. This stuff is as much BS for us as it is for you. Also, keep in mind not every FFL does it exactly this way. You can certainly direct them to the linked doc, but don't be a jerk about it.

Thank you and thank you..