Private Party Tranafer Question.

[Zundfolge]

I thought the entire BG proccess was separate from the firearm transaction. In other words you could walk in, pay the fee and have a background check done and then the "passed" BG check was good for X days.

[sellersm]

Check out this thread, starting at Post #57, which is also from a FFL: http://www.ar-15.co/threads/109009-B...ks-and-trading

FFL 07/02 here. I want to revise what I said earlier. Looks like ATF has released updated instructions to us, which means as long as a seller does not "relinquish" the firearm, they can leave with the gun at any point. Don't release your gun to the dealer when you're doing the transfer!

A 4473 is required for all transfers, and logging in/out of FFL books is still required before any FTF transfer can proceed. However, the BGC can happen prior to the transfer, and if the buyer fails, the seller can walk out. The $10 still gets charged to the FFL regardless, and you can bet they are going to want their service fee up front too, regardless of pass/fail.

Also, keep in mind the $10 you pay to CBI is not to the ATF. Colorado requires the $10 fee to pay for its own internal check, because "it's better" than the free federal NICS check, I guess.

For your viewing "pleasure":
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...rough_ffls.pdf

Short version:
1) Buyer fills out 4473
2) FFL checks and records buyer ID, marks handgun/longgun/other (no SN# yet), and runs the BGC. CBI charges $10 at this point
3) If pass, FFL takes gun & confirms SN, enters gun into books, writes the SN# on the 4473, and logs the book out to buyer. Buyer/seller leave happy.
4) If fail, seller takes the gun and leaves. FFL did not take possession. FFL does not enter the gun into the books. 4473 gets filed (without SN/gun info).
5) If the seller ever gives "exclusive possession" to the FFL (not a lawyer but you'd probably have to actually leave to do this), then seller has to pass a BCG to get their gun back. Seller still owns it, just can't take possession. If seller fails BGC, you'll have to work something out with the FFL (likely consignment as mentioned above, or find another buyer).

So it could be worse. Could be a LOT better though.
Be nice to your FFL if you found a good one. This stuff is as much BS for us as it is for you. Also, keep in mind not every FFL does it exactly this way. You can certainly direct them to the linked doc, but don't be a jerk about it.

[Ronin13]

For the FFL to perform the background the firearm must be logged into the bound book. Once that happens there is no other option but to do a 4473 and backgorund check to give back to the seller. The ATF released a letter after Newtown instructing FFLs how to handle transfers for private transactions. I know it sucks but that what FFLs are being told they must do.

This is the new procedure issued as a follow up to the open letter to FFLs.

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations...ure-2013-1.pdf

Reading that ATF file it says nothing about how the FFL must take possession of the item prior to completing a BGC.
Read this again:

The way I see it, it's perfectly legal to go in with the seller to an FFL that will be willing to do the BGC and transfer (with all applicable fees) you- hereby known as "Seller"- maintain possession and control of the firearm until the result of the buyer's BGC is complete. Upon approval you transfer the firearm to the FFL, they fill out the necessary A&D and remaining 4473 (again, the 4473 for the BGC need not have any more details other than "pistol" OR "rifle/shotgun" OR "other") complete the transfer, seller collects their money, buyer collects their new toy, laws followed, everyone is happy. In the event of a denial of BGC the buyer still pays for the BGC, and the seller, having maintained possession of the firearm, continues on and does whatever they please with the firearm, no laws broken, no transfer made, no harm, no foul. This is the way I'd do it, and if it comes to it, this is the way I will do it. If I can't find an FFL that will do it that way, then I guess I don't sell anything.

ETA: Pretty much what sellersm said. (I had to do some screen cap cut/paste to get the text from the ATF PDF).

[battle_sight_zero]

All this nonsense, hoops, bull hokey is why I am not motivated to trade. I have decided that all my extra funds that I normally used on new firearms will go to gear like scopes, aimpoints and ammo plus overturning this crap.

[ChrisC]

Reading that ATF file it says nothing about how the FFL must take possession of the item prior to completing a BGC.
Read this again:

The way I see it, it's perfectly legal to go in with the seller to an FFL that will be willing to do the BGC and transfer (with all applicable fees) you- hereby known as "Seller"- maintain possession and control of the firearm until the result of the buyer's BGC is complete. Upon approval you transfer the firearm to the FFL, they fill out the necessary A&D and remaining 4473 (again, the 4473 for the BGC need not have any more details other than "pistol" OR "rifle/shotgun" OR "other") complete the transfer, seller collects their money, buyer collects their new toy, laws followed, everyone is happy. In the event of a denial of BGC the buyer still pays for the BGC, and the seller, having maintained possession of the firearm, continues on and does whatever they please with the firearm, no laws broken, no transfer made, no harm, no foul. This is the way I'd do it, and if it comes to it, this is the way I will do it. If I can't find an FFL that will do it that way, then I guess I don't sell anything.

ETA: Pretty much what sellersm said. (I had to do some screen cap cut/paste to get the text from the ATF PDF).

I stand corrected I must have had not read that part of the regulation and I was basing my response on the original guidance the ATF released in the Open Letter. I am glad they have clarified how to handle that.

[mtnhack]

Even the ATF note posted says that if the seller never yields possession there are no further fees or checks required. Simple solution, don't yield possession until everything goes through.


ps. I won't be logging any private firearm sales. Bastards.

[BigDee]

This is a big win for the Dems. Their ultimate goal was to eliminate Private Party deals and this new law makes everything so complicated no one is going to bother with private party deals anymore.

I buy and sell a lot of guns just because I like to try different guns for a bit and then move on to try something else. This new law is going to make it cost prohibitive to do what I like to do and so much of a pain in the ass it's not worth it.

I told the wife if all this shit passes we were moving elsewhere. All this shit passed and I've been sticking it out because its going to kill her to leave her family. Now that I'm seeing the first hand effects and realizing just how much of an impact it has on something I love my wife is going to have to suck it up because we are relocating.

[sandman76]

I've not bought or sold a gun from a private party at a gun show for a long time. But, isn't this the way it's been done since the law passed that removed the gun show loophole?

[Zundfolge]

This is a big win for the Dems. Their ultimate goal was to eliminate Private Party deals and this new law makes everything so complicated no one is going to bother with private party deals anymore.

This assumes that people care about the law ... the more intrusive and stupid the law gets the more people will say "screw 'The Man' I'll buy and sell off paper all I damn well please" of course the first people to do this will criminals, but eventually the other-wise law abiding citizen will also.

I buy and sell a lot of guns just because I like to try different guns for a bit and then move on to try something else. This new law is going to make it cost prohibitive to do what I like to do and so much of a pain in the ass it's not worth it.

I'm in this boat ... I had pretty much stopped looking at guns on GB and other out of state sales because I got tired of the BG check and fee crap, so on the one hand I'll do less trading, but on the other hand I'll probably start looking at out of state deals more.

I told the wife if all this shit passes we were moving elsewhere. All this shit passed and I've been sticking it out because its going to kill her to leave her family. Now that I'm seeing the first hand effects and realizing just how much of an impact it has on something I love my wife is going to have to suck it up because we are relocating.

There's a good chance this and the mag ban will be beat in court so I'm going to wait and see for a while (although the job market sucks here so if I find myself unemployed I'll probably start looking to the Salt Lake City area because you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone that is looking to hire a Graphic Designer there).

[BlasterBob]

Where's Jim? Thought he'd be here by now.