Devil's Advocate: What is wrong with the ACA?

[Ridge]

What is it that gets you guys riled up about the Affordable Care Act's individual mandate?

[Jamnanc]

We shouldn't be required to purchase a product. We especially shouldn't have to pay an additional premium to support someone who isn't our family to be insured.

Cost

[Ridge]

We shouldn't be required to purchase a product. We especially shouldn't have to pay an additional premium to support someone who isn't our family to be insured.

Cost

But you do the latter all the time with taxes for roads and schools and emergency services.

[ChunkyMonkey]

What is it that gets you guys riled up about the Affordable Care Act's individual mandate?

Before I start to list the bad stuffs.. how about why are the folks who passed, signed this into the law exempted? Why some of the largest of Obamacare supporters including the unions are demanding to be exempted?

[Gman]

Where in the Constitution does it say that the Federal government has the ability to force you to buy a product, or face a financial penalty?

[jerrymrc]

[BPTactical]

You gotta lay off the Purple Pony powder before bedtime there Ridge.

A-the Gov has no right to mandate an individual to purchase a product.
B-the Gov has no right to interject itself into a Dr/patient relationship.
C-the Gov has no right deciding what care an individual shall receive.
D-as already proven, it is a job killer.
E-expense:-the cost associated with the program have gone from IIRC 45 mil projected to over 3 billion and will likely go up from there.
F-"you can keep your current health plan and Dr." a lie that is already coming to fruition.
G- kills free market competition in healthcare which is critical to progress in the medical field.
H- the Gov has no right to limit what an individual can earn, Dr salaries are capped under the ACA.
I-expense-millions have received notice from their current carrier that premiums will increase 40-120%.
J- administrators have no place in deciding who shall receive what treatment and when "death panels" (a reality)
K- maybe I missed it, but I don't recall ever seeing where healthcare is a "Right".


As already noted, if this is such a wonderful thing, why have so many attempted to be waived exempt or receive subsidy for it?

Let's look back to how it was implemented.
A-behind closed doors(but this is "the most transparent administration" isn't it?)
B- "you have to pass it to see what's in it."
C-back door dealings to get support and enough votes to pass it (Nebraska and Louisiana come to mind)
D-as we have seen so well in our state with other legislation, the elected representatives did not consider their constituents input.
E- a SCOTUS judge was clearly leveraged into ruling in favor of it (unclear as to exactly how but it is clear Roberts had a sudden change of heart)

[Ridge]

Before I start to list the bad stuffs.. how about why are the folks who passed, signed this into the law exempted? Why some of the largest of Obamacare supporters including the unions are demanding to be exempted?

They aren't exempt. Originally, they didn't have to join the healthcare exchange, but an amendment to the bill makes it so that they are now part of it, just like everyone else.

Where in the Constitution does it say that the Federal government has the ability to force you to buy a product, or face a financial penalty?

They say that they do, as it falls under the insterstate commerce clause. You can argue that it also falls under the government's requirement to provide for the national welfare.

You gotta lay off the Purple Pony powder before bedtime there Ridge.

A-the Gov has no right to mandate an individual to purchase a product.

Covered above

B-the Gov has no right to interject itself into a Dr/patient relationship.

They are not interjecting in the doctor/patient relationship. They are extending it to everyone in the country

C-the Gov has no right deciding what care an individual shall receive.

Health insurance is not health care. It's simply the means to pay for it.

D-as already proven, it is a job killer.

This discussion is specifically about the individual mandate.

E-expense:-the cost associated with the program have gone from IIRC 45 mil projected to over 3 billion and will likely go up from there.

Healthcare wasn't exactly cheap for people to buy before this happened.

F-"you can keep your current health plan and Dr." a lie that is already coming to fruition.

Can you show where they are wrong?

G- kills free market competition in healthcare which is critical to progress in the medical field.

How does it kill the free market? People can still choose which insurer they want to go with.

H- the Gov has no right to limit what an individual can earn, Dr salaries are capped under the ACA.

Doctor salaries are not capped. Insurance company profits are capped, in that they have to spend a marked percentage of their income on health care.

I-expense-millions have received notice from their current carrier that premiums will increase 40-120%.

At which point they can drop off and pay the much lower fine and be covered under the general fund.

J- administrators have no place in deciding who shall receive what treatment and when "death panels" (a reality)

There are no death panels. This isn't Logan's Run.

K- maybe I missed it, but I don't recall ever seeing where healthcare is a "Right".

So just because it isn't an enumerated right means that people shouldn't get it at all, and just die?

As already noted, if this is such a wonderful thing, why have so many attempted to be waived exempt or receive subsidy for it?

Individual mandate discussion here.

Let's look back to how it was implemented.
A-behind closed doors(but this is "the most transparent administration" isn't it?)
B- "you have to pass it to see what's in it."
C-back door dealings to get support and enough votes to pass it (Nebraska and Louisiana come to mind)
D-as we have seen so well in our state with other legislation, the elected representatives did not consider their constituents input.
E- a SCOTUS judge was clearly leveraged into ruling in favor of it (unclear as to exactly how but it is clear Roberts had a sudden change of heart)

I'm certainly not arguing over how it was passed. But regarding the Supreme Court, it's very likely that Roberts read the bill (unlike most Americans) and saw what can come of it, and changed his mind.

[Great-Kazoo]

Using the IRS as the oversight dept should speak volumes, regarding how it's run. IF ACA is such a benefit to society, why is a Revenue agency and not HHS running it?
WHY are labor unions saying it will weaken them more, if implemented? Why are members of congress exempt? Why are more and more corps, asking for a delay of start date?
WHY do I need to be burdened more than i am now, FORCED to support more, less fortunate people who either do not or can not pay now ?

[Ridge]

Using the IRS as the oversight dept should speak volumes, regarding how it's run. IF ACA is such a benefit to society, why is a Revenue agency and not HHS running it?
WHY are labor unions saying it will weaken them more, if implemented? Why are members of congress exempt? Why are more and more corps, asking for a delay of start date?
WHY do I need to be burdened more than i am now, FORCED to support more, less fortunate people who either do not or can not pay now ?

I already covered congress. All of a sudden, you support labor unions? And we're only discussing the individual mandate.

Why is using an existing agency to run this bad? It's more fiscally responsible than creating yet another.

And I'm forced to support you through social security, just like you did with previous generations.