Nelson Mandella has died

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Newt Gingrich comments on Mandela:

[snip]

Wow--he went full RINOtard!

[Aloha_Shooter]

Wow--he went full RINOtard!

I generally dislike Gingrich but no, this statement was not "RINOtard". He's absolutely right about this one.

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I generally dislike Gingrich but no, this statement was not "RINOtard". He's absolutely right about this one.

I would suggest you do some reading...

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873

The portrayal of a peace loving man who unified SA is a work of fiction. The man was a monster who was offered the choice to renounce violence for his freedom; he refused. He, like all Communists, requires the deaths of millions to get what he wants. And the bloodshed isn't over.

[snip]

By the way, how many of you have been to SA or dealt one-on-one with South Afrikaners recently? Yes there's crime, particularly in Jo'burg. I was in Jo'burg 4.5 years ago and advised to not leave myself isolated in a parking lot or leave the hotel grounds after dark but I had no problems walking around a shopping mall. SA seemed to me to have a viable economy -- not without its problems but they don't have some buffoon who thinks he can spend 40% more than he takes in forever without consequence either. Trying to understand their current situation from a handful of news accounts is like trying to understand the US from a handful of reports on knockout "games" and the Trayvon Martin case.

I have worked with two contractors who both fled SA for their lives--one working on his citizenship and the other married an American. Neither one will talk about it openly for fear of political correctness/judgment.

Your characterization is another gross misrepresentation. What's happening in SA is a quiet genocide. To equate this with excessive consumer spending is "interesting" (for lack of a respectful word).

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

I would kindly like to inform you about the ongoing white genocide in the Republic of South-Africa. Since 1994, the end of the so-called Apartheid, whites people, especially white farmers, have been subject to extremely brutal and racist murders. About 50 people on average are murdered in South-Africa per day, of which at least 20 of them are whites(95+ % black on white murder rate). Please take into consideration that white people make up only 9% (4 500 000) of the demographics in South-Africa and therefore the white murder rate in South-Africa is quite significant.

This is Mandela's legacy and the fruit of his labor. To say he's not responsible for this when he started the practice as President is ridiculous. Trying to relate what this terrorist did to our founders is downright offensive (as the RINO did).

Did George Washington, Patrick Henry, or Thomas Jefferson do this?




Some of you are very confused--and there are folks hoping you stay confused.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I would suggest you do some reading...

http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873

The portrayal of a peace loving man who unified SA is a work of fiction. The man was a monster who was offered the choice to renounce violence for his freedom; he refused. He, like all Communists, requires the deaths of millions to get what he wants. And the bloodshed isn't over.

I've read it. I was also reading the press articles contemporaneously during the Soweto Uprisings, de Klerk's reign, and Mandela's ascension to the presidency. The fact of the matter is that Mandela had every opportunity to be the bitter divisionist that Obama has been, to seek "revenge" as the New Black Panther Party has, etc. and he didn't. Yes, he was a bitter violent foe of apartheid but he didn't go past that when he got what he wanted (the end of apartheid). Yes, he made mistakes along the way like aligning with the Soviets, something I neither forgive nor forget.

I have worked with two contractors who both fled SA for their lives--one working on his citizenship and the other married an American. Neither one will talk about it openly for fear of political correctness/judgment.

Your characterization is another gross misrepresentation. What's happening in SA is a quiet genocide. To equate this with excessive consumer spending is "interesting" (for lack of a respectful word).

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html



This is Mandela's legacy and the fruit of his labor. To say he's not responsible for this when he started the practice as President is ridiculous. Trying to relate what this terrorist did to our founders is downright offensive (as the RINO did).

Did George Washington, Patrick Henry, or Thomas Jefferson do this?




Some of you are very confused--and there are folks hoping you stay confused.

My dealings have hardly been a statistical representation but I've met and talked with young SAers in SA. Yes, there's quite a bit of political correctness in how they talk but they come from a different demographic -- non-farmer Afrikaners. As I said, you're confusing Nelson Mandela with Zuma, Winnie Mandela (don't get me started on that beeyatch), and others. The violence you're talking about has got significantly worse in Zuma's reign as Mandela got sick and even your sources predict an uptick now that Mandela is dead. I wonder why that is if Mandela hadn't been a force against the racist thefts and murders? I look at Mandela as I do Menachem Begin who also started as a terrorist by anyone's definition. That's why I oppose his deification but it would be equally wrong to deny that he consistently tried to chart a peaceful path for SA. By the way, 20/50 is a 40% rate, not 95%, but I do expect it to be worse in more recent years.

[centrarchidae]

Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.
I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

This.

I'm sitting out the rest of this thread, but you called one very important thing:

Mandela was not in a good position to pick and choose his allies. There were two, maybe three places outside of SA where he could go for support: The "West" (meaning us), the "East" (meaning the communists), and maybe whoever was backing Islamists back then (which weren't a huge movement in the 70's, relatively speaking.)

We never made with the guns or money. I'm going to guess that even if our "good friends" the Saudis were crapping out money for politics, they would have insisted that Mandela convert to Islam or some damn thing. Which leaves...yep, the USSR and/or PRC.

So, should he have turned the support down because of where it came from? And just packed up and went home?

So, yes, Mandela aligning with communists was indeed IMHO a classic case of us missing an opportunity.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Those who want to denigrate Mandela because the Left is deifying him now should consider that even his "adversaries" in SA have praised him for how he approached reconciliation and unification. It would have been very easy for him to want revenge instead of reconciliation when he got out of prison but he really and truly sought to unify the country with an eye toward its future.

F.W. de Klerk doesn't get enough praise for the country's transition but he had nothing but praise for Mandella. "Pik" Botha had this to say: (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...ntcmp=HPBucket):

To this day, I remain deeply impressed by Mandela’s opening address.
He displayed a remarkably thorough knowledge of the history of the Afrikaner, referring to the pain and sorrow of the Anglo-Boer War: 27,000 women and children who died in the concentration camps. Boer soldiers returning to graves and ruined farms. The ensuing poverty of the Afrikaner and his harrowing feeling of being wronged.
The enormous suffering of the Afrikaner he could understand. But what he could not understand, he said, was why the Afrikaner, when they started recovering from their devastation, didn’t then reach out to their fellow black South Africans who were equally impoverished, degraded and subjugated.

He posed a haunting question to us.
The answer is that the whites also became victims of apartheid, the Afrikaner more so. We had fought fiercely and paid a terrible price for our own freedom, but failed to realize that we could not truly be free unless all the people living and working in what we considered to be white South Africa could share that freedom with us.

This is how I got to know him – an unfathomable human being.
An elder brother.
A person who endured imprisonment for 27 years and then handled the presidency of the country as if he had never spent a single day in jail.
...

His conviction in court did not preclude him from adhering to his conviction that black and white needed each other to achieve progress and prosperity for all our people.
He decided that he was not going to allow himself to be governed by hatred and bitterness.
He believed that the inequities and animosities of the past could be ruled out by a charter or bill of fundamental human rights.
He assured us that majority rule would not entail a black majority dominating a white minority.
He emphasized that we live in a country that belongs to all of us, black and white. The black majority will need the white minority to achieve the same level of proficiency in management and craftsmanship.

Mandela achieved his “cherished ideal” with an immeasurable endurance of suffering, without having to die for it.
He warded off the temptation to be guided by the bitterness of suffering 27 years imprisonment and resolved to persevere on the road of reconciliation and peaceful negotiations to accomplish his arduous “long walk to freedom” for all the people of South Africa, black and white.

Yes, many in the ANC and SA government are not living up to Mandela's post-apartheid ideal but blaming him for that is like blaming Robert E. Lee for the excesses of Quantrill and Anderson. Jacob Zuma is not governing as Mandela did and he's trying to hold on to power through racism, theft, and redistribution -- it's not like we haven't seen that before.

By the way, how many of you have been to SA or dealt one-on-one with South Afrikaners recently? Yes there's crime, particularly in Jo'burg. I was in Jo'burg 4.5 years ago and advised to not leave myself isolated in a parking lot or leave the hotel grounds after dark but I had no problems walking around a shopping mall. SA seemed to me to have a viable economy -- not without its problems but they don't have some buffoon who thinks he can spend 40% more than he takes in forever without consequence either. Trying to understand their current situation from a handful of news accounts is like trying to understand the US from a handful of reports on knockout "games" and the Trayvon Martin case.

[RMAC757]

Those who want to denigrate Mandela because the Left is deifying him now should consider that even his "adversaries" in SA have praised him for how he approached reconciliation and unification. It would have been very easy for him to want revenge instead of reconciliation when he got out of prison but he really and truly sought to unify the country with an eye toward its future.

F.W. de Klerk doesn't get enough praise for the country's transition but he had nothing but praise for Mandella. "Pik" Botha had this to say: (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...ntcmp=HPBucket):







Yes, many in the ANC and SA government are not living up to Mandela's post-apartheid ideal but blaming him for that is like blaming Robert E. Lee for the excesses of Quantrill and Anderson. Jacob Zuma is not governing as Mandela did and he's trying to hold on to power through racism, theft, and redistribution -- it's not like we haven't seen that before.

By the way, how many of you have been to SA or dealt one-on-one with South Afrikaners recently? Yes there's crime, particularly in Jo'burg. I was in Jo'burg 4.5 years ago and advised to not leave myself isolated in a parking lot or leave the hotel grounds after dark but I had no problems walking around a shopping mall. SA seemed to me to have a viable economy -- not without its problems but they don't have some buffoon who thinks he can spend 40% more than he takes in forever without consequence either. Trying to understand their current situation from a handful of news accounts is like trying to understand the US from a handful of reports on knockout "games" and the Trayvon Martin case.

Well stated Aloha.

[Mtn.man]

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/07/...ype-continues/

[RMAC757]

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/07/...ype-continues/

That has more holes in it than my favorite pair of gym socks

[Mtn.man]