Welcome to the Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums.
Something worth looking into, how the majority of the people came to south Africa, and why, and how they tried to control it. Then look at our immigration problem.
Getting people more wound up than a liberal who just lost their welfare check
I would say don't be so quick to blame the actions of Jacob Zuma and the rest of the ANC on Mandela. Yes, Mandela had a mixed history (aligning with the tyrants of the USSR and Cuba was just flat out stupid) but the way he made peace with de Klerk said volumes. Menachem Begin bombed a hotel in his younger days but I think he fully deserved the praise he got for making peace with Sadat. Mandela's beatification disturbs me far less than the butt worship shown to Obama or Clinton. What's really funny is how quickly Obama and the Clintons have tried to tie themselves to him now that he can't say, "that's not true".
Newt Gingrich comments on Mandela:
Yesterday I issued a heartfelt and personal statement about the passing of President Nelson Mandela. I said that his family and his country would be in my prayers and Callista’s prayers.I was surprised by the hostility and vehemence of some of the people who reacted to me saying a kind word about a unique historic figure.
So let me say to those conservatives who don’t want to honor Nelson Mandela, what would you have done?
Mandela was faced with a vicious apartheid regime that eliminated all rights for blacks and gave them no hope for the future. This was a regime which used secret police, prisons and military force to crush all efforts at seeking freedom by blacks.
What would you have done faced with that crushing government?
What would you do here in America if you had that kind of oppression?
Some of the people who are most opposed to oppression from Washington attack Mandela when he was opposed to oppression in his own country.
After years of preaching non-violence, using the political system, making his case as a defendant in court, Mandela resorted to violence against a government that was ruthless and violent in its suppression of free speech.
As Americans we celebrate the farmers at Lexington and Concord who used force to oppose British tyranny. We praise George Washington for spending eight years in the field fighting the British Army’s dictatorial assault on our freedom.
Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death.”
Thomas Jefferson wrote and the Continental Congress adopted that “all men are created equal, and they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
Doesn’t this apply to Nelson Mandela and his people?
Some conservatives say, ah, but he was a communist.
Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.
I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.
Finally, if you had been imprisoned for 27 years, 18 of them in a cell eight foot by seven foot, how do you think you would have emerged? Would you have been angry? Would you have been bitter?
Wow--he went full RINOtard!Originally Posted by RMAC757
Those who want to denigrate Mandela because the Left is deifying him now should consider that even his "adversaries" in SA have praised him for how he approached reconciliation and unification. It would have been very easy for him to want revenge instead of reconciliation when he got out of prison but he really and truly sought to unify the country with an eye toward its future.
F.W. de Klerk doesn't get enough praise for the country's transition but he had nothing but praise for Mandella. "Pik" Botha had this to say: (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...ntcmp=HPBucket):
To this day, I remain deeply impressed by Mandela’s opening address.
He displayed a remarkably thorough knowledge of the history of the Afrikaner, referring to the pain and sorrow of the Anglo-Boer War: 27,000 women and children who died in the concentration camps. Boer soldiers returning to graves and ruined farms. The ensuing poverty of the Afrikaner and his harrowing feeling of being wronged.
The enormous suffering of the Afrikaner he could understand. But what he could not understand, he said, was why the Afrikaner, when they started recovering from their devastation, didn’t then reach out to their fellow black South Africans who were equally impoverished, degraded and subjugated.
He posed a haunting question to us.
The answer is that the whites also became victims of apartheid, the Afrikaner more so. We had fought fiercely and paid a terrible price for our own freedom, but failed to realize that we could not truly be free unless all the people living and working in what we considered to be white South Africa could share that freedom with us.This is how I got to know him – an unfathomable human being.
An elder brother.
A person who endured imprisonment for 27 years and then handled the presidency of the country as if he had never spent a single day in jail.
...
His conviction in court did not preclude him from adhering to his conviction that black and white needed each other to achieve progress and prosperity for all our people.
He decided that he was not going to allow himself to be governed by hatred and bitterness.
He believed that the inequities and animosities of the past could be ruled out by a charter or bill of fundamental human rights.
He assured us that majority rule would not entail a black majority dominating a white minority.
He emphasized that we live in a country that belongs to all of us, black and white. The black majority will need the white minority to achieve the same level of proficiency in management and craftsmanship.
Yes, many in the ANC and SA government are not living up to Mandela's post-apartheid ideal but blaming him for that is like blaming Robert E. Lee for the excesses of Quantrill and Anderson. Jacob Zuma is not governing as Mandela did and he's trying to hold on to power through racism, theft, and redistribution -- it's not like we haven't seen that before.Mandela achieved his “cherished ideal” with an immeasurable endurance of suffering, without having to die for it.
He warded off the temptation to be guided by the bitterness of suffering 27 years imprisonment and resolved to persevere on the road of reconciliation and peaceful negotiations to accomplish his arduous “long walk to freedom” for all the people of South Africa, black and white.
By the way, how many of you have been to SA or dealt one-on-one with South Afrikaners recently? Yes there's crime, particularly in Jo'burg. I was in Jo'burg 4.5 years ago and advised to not leave myself isolated in a parking lot or leave the hotel grounds after dark but I had no problems walking around a shopping mall. SA seemed to me to have a viable economy -- not without its problems but they don't have some buffoon who thinks he can spend 40% more than he takes in forever without consequence either. Trying to understand their current situation from a handful of news accounts is like trying to understand the US from a handful of reports on knockout "games" and the Trayvon Martin case.
Last edited by Aloha_Shooter; 12-08-2013 at 12:42. Reason: Typos
I generally dislike Gingrich but no, this statement was not "RINOtard". He's absolutely right about this one.
I would suggest you do some reading...
http://americanfreepress.net/?p=11873
The portrayal of a peace loving man who unified SA is a work of fiction. The man was a monster who was offered the choice to renounce violence for his freedom; he refused. He, like all Communists, requires the deaths of millions to get what he wants. And the bloodshed isn't over.
I have worked with two contractors who both fled SA for their lives--one working on his citizenship and the other married an American. Neither one will talk about it openly for fear of political correctness/judgment.
Your characterization is another gross misrepresentation. What's happening in SA is a quiet genocide. To equate this with excessive consumer spending is "interesting" (for lack of a respectful word).
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html
This is Mandela's legacy and the fruit of his labor. To say he's not responsible for this when he started the practice as President is ridiculous. Trying to relate what this terrorist did to our founders is downright offensive (as the RINO did).I would kindly like to inform you about the ongoing white genocide in the Republic of South-Africa. Since 1994, the end of the so-called Apartheid, whites people, especially white farmers, have been subject to extremely brutal and racist murders. About 50 people on average are murdered in South-Africa per day, of which at least 20 of them are whites(95+ % black on white murder rate). Please take into consideration that white people make up only 9% (4 500 000) of the demographics in South-Africa and therefore the white murder rate in South-Africa is quite significant.
Did George Washington, Patrick Henry, or Thomas Jefferson do this?
Some of you are very confused--and there are folks hoping you stay confused.
Well stated Aloha.
I've read it. I was also reading the press articles contemporaneously during the Soweto Uprisings, de Klerk's reign, and Mandela's ascension to the presidency. The fact of the matter is that Mandela had every opportunity to be the bitter divisionist that Obama has been, to seek "revenge" as the New Black Panther Party has, etc. and he didn't. Yes, he was a bitter violent foe of apartheid but he didn't go past that when he got what he wanted (the end of apartheid). Yes, he made mistakes along the way like aligning with the Soviets, something I neither forgive nor forget.
My dealings have hardly been a statistical representation but I've met and talked with young SAers in SA. Yes, there's quite a bit of political correctness in how they talk but they come from a different demographic -- non-farmer Afrikaners. As I said, you're confusing Nelson Mandela with Zuma, Winnie Mandela (don't get me started on that beeyatch), and others. The violence you're talking about has got significantly worse in Zuma's reign as Mandela got sick and even your sources predict an uptick now that Mandela is dead. I wonder why that is if Mandela hadn't been a force against the racist thefts and murders? I look at Mandela as I do Menachem Begin who also started as a terrorist by anyone's definition. That's why I oppose his deification but it would be equally wrong to deny that he consistently tried to chart a peaceful path for SA. By the way, 20/50 is a 40% rate, not 95%, but I do expect it to be worse in more recent years.I have worked with two contractors who both fled SA for their lives--one working on his citizenship and the other married an American. Neither one will talk about it openly for fear of political correctness/judgment.
Your characterization is another gross misrepresentation. What's happening in SA is a quiet genocide. To equate this with excessive consumer spending is "interesting" (for lack of a respectful word).
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html
This is Mandela's legacy and the fruit of his labor. To say he's not responsible for this when he started the practice as President is ridiculous. Trying to relate what this terrorist did to our founders is downright offensive (as the RINO did).
Did George Washington, Patrick Henry, or Thomas Jefferson do this?
Some of you are very confused--and there are folks hoping you stay confused.
My belief is Mandela got this out of his system in the early days with the ANC. Then when the world was watching he turned into a saint.
This is why he was imprisoned in the first place.
You have a great point with the comparison to Obama! But like in the US currently, there is an awkward understanding of what is too far that is often negotiated out of plain sight. Unlike Obama, Mandela actually to work his way into the Presidency.
Mandela as a stabilizing force? Maybe. And maybe because he understands the consequences of a questionable legacy. Maybe because he is offsetting his formative years.
The folks I have talked to have laid it out exactly as I have read it. The writing is on the wall no matter what. They chose to leave while they could still sell their property. The crime is constant and the police often look the other way--even with serious crimes against persons. Whites are walling themselves in, turning their homes into compounds. There are no neighboring countries that will take them in.
I believe there are two stats the source quoted; murders by race and then murderers by race. Yes, 40% of the people killed are whites (in a country where only 9% are white) but they are killed by blacks 95% of the time. This is in spite of the increased security and awareness. This is a genocide and it has been since 1994.
At the end of the day, there will be people who paint this as black and white. It's Mandela or Apartheid; therefore they praise Mandela. Nothing could be more false. Apartheid was evil. So was Mandela's response to it and their legacy will continue to be racial strife, injustice, and genocide.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote