Nelson Mandella has died

[Mtn.man]

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/07/...ype-continues/

[RMAC757]

My belief is Mandela got this out of his system in the early days with the ANC. Then when the world was watching he turned into a saint.

This is why he was imprisoned in the first place.

You have a great point with the comparison to Obama! But like in the US currently, there is an awkward understanding of what is too far that is often negotiated out of plain sight. Unlike Obama, Mandela actually to work his way into the Presidency.




Mandela as a stabilizing force? Maybe. And maybe because he understands the consequences of a questionable legacy. Maybe because he is offsetting his formative years.

The folks I have talked to have laid it out exactly as I have read it. The writing is on the wall no matter what. They chose to leave while they could still sell their property. The crime is constant and the police often look the other way--even with serious crimes against persons. Whites are walling themselves in, turning their homes into compounds. There are no neighboring countries that will take them in.

I believe there are two stats the source quoted; murders by race and then murderers by race. Yes, 40% of the people killed are whites (in a country where only 9% are white) but they are killed by blacks 95% of the time. This is in spite of the increased security and awareness. This is a genocide and it has been since 1994.

At the end of the day, there will be people who paint this as black and white. It's Mandela or Apartheid; therefore they praise Mandela. Nothing could be more false. Apartheid was evil. So was Mandela's response to it and their legacy will continue to be racial strife, injustice, and genocide.

I wonder what the murder rates were along racial lines during Germany from 1938-1945? Did the international community subject and divide Germany ( well at least the western half ) along racial lines to keep to peace post National Socialism? 6 million Jews were murdered. Would the rounding up of and displacing of the German people while creating a separate set of laws based on their history of violence solve anything in the long run? Racial violence isn't the domain of any one particular group.

[RMAC757]

http://dcclothesline.com/2013/12/07/...ype-continues/

That has more holes in it than my favorite pair of gym socks

[Mtn.man]

[RMAC757]

Mt, this is just a a random chart showing bombings and his picture. I could take photo shop and anyone's pic and do this in 5 minutes. I could take my picture and place a list of "Super Bowl" titles and someone would believe it. "Guilty by photoshopped incriminating internet photo" seems to be a trend. This pic could of come from anywhere. "It has to be true, it was on the internet"

[TheWeeze]

One of the underlying themes I've been reading here has to do with how savage the black population is after the end of apartheid. About how rape and murder is at miraculous highs and how 95% of whites are murdered by blacks. And many are quick to blame Mandela for this and his ANC for this. But maybe the real blame needs to be placed at the feet of the 50 years of apartheid segregation and human rights violations prior to its end. That no matter who it was that ended Apartheid that this was going to be the the lingering effects of it. That generations of people raised in a culture of hate, discrimination, violence, and economic struggle don't know anything different than to hate, discriminate, and be violent towards those that were responsible.

Maybe we should be talking about how Mandela and his successors, while they're not perfect, might have had a hand in keeping the country together and not into a completely desolate land of savages without any semblance of society. That 50 years of oppression, rape, murder, and torture isn't wiped away clean when a white man frees some black men and says that Apartheid is over.

Maybe South Africa is better off now than it would have been without Mandela because we all know that Apartheid wasn't going to last much longer anyways, and it could have come to a much more violent end.

[hatidua]

I'm not from South Africa, nor have I spent any time in Africa south of Nairobi so I decided to email a friend who is South African, born and raised (for reference, he's middle-aged, white, blond-haired, blue-eyed) to get the outlook of someone who lives there rather than simply reads newspapers in some other country. Prior to this email I had no idea how he felt about any of this stuff, hence my emailing him about it in the first place. This is the email I received from him this morning regarding the passing of Mandela:

Apologies for the late reply mate, its been a very busy last 10 days, and that was before the very sad passing of Mandela…

Thanks for the mail and the enquiry about how things are down here…


Not sure how you guys are seeing it over there, or how its being distorted or not by the media, but on this end things are good… We've all known it was a day that has been coming for a long time, and I think most are thankful that the great man is now in a better place… he has been sick for a long time, and pretty much out of it for the last 6 to 8 months, on life support, so it came as no great surprise or shock to most… But it is still a very sad day to have the loss of such a great man… a man each and every South African has to thank for the place we are today, and for uniting this mad nation during a time when things really could have gone the other way, were it not for his grace, forgiveness, compassion and drive to leave the past behind, and go forward….


The unfortunate thing is that the ideals and practices of Mandela have long since been forgotten or swept to the side by the current leaders of the ANC and in turn, the country… a more corrupt bunch of thieving, nepotistic , lying useless sacks of shit you would be hard pressed to find… Its quite sickening in fact how these useless bastards are ruining what was so hard fought for by Mandela and others of his ilk… The current crop are just in it for themselves, to line their pockets as much as they can, with little to no thought of tomorrow, or next week, or next month…. And even sadder is how they have completely forgotten their people… the people that Mandela fought for, fought to elevate above poverty give a better life.. The people who voted these lying scoundrels currently in charge to power… these are the folks I feel most sorry for… us so called "privileged" whites are ok, we thankfully were given a decent base by our forefathers, and we have the means to work around the currently corrupt and inept government… but those not so fortunate are just being used and abused by these swines…. Typical story of Africa unfortunately… A man is a freedom fighter, a man of the people, by the people, for the people…. Until he gets into power… then he becomes just another self serving, power hunger, money grabbing corrupt thief… its like a sickness, and unfortunately while Mandela was able to rise beyond and above that, those who follow have not been so lucky…


That being said, we South Africans, all of us, Black, White, Coloured, Indian, we are a resilient bunch, and we will work through it all… The great mans passing has united the nation by reminding us to focus on the good things Mandela was able to do for us all, how he united us all no matter the circumstance… And hopefully will remind a lot of folks that the ideals he stood for, fought for, and in turn was able to provide to so many millions of people in his land, are being taken away from them by their own government, and that they will wisely use their vote in the coming elections to take the power away from the current crop of bastards in government, and vote for those that will actually help them, and help this nation…


Right now its all about Mandela here… 10 days of mourning and remembrance… and as yet the petty government factions have not yet started to lay claim to Mandela as "theirs" because they are black or because they are the ANC and Mandela was ANC president or for any other reason…. Because its bound to happen sooner or later, and there are already whispers of this faction or party "claiming" him.. The truth is Mandela belongs to no one and all of us at the same time… As a South African, as an African, and as a human, we can all lay claim to Mandela, because who he was, and what he stood for, belongs to all of us, and I hope that is what stands out above all else in the coming weeks..


Sorry if that’s perhaps a slightly slanted view on things…. But its how I see it as someone who loves his country more than anything, and hates seeing it destroyed by a bunch of idiot money grabbing thugs…. I may be white, but this is my land of birth, that makes me an African… I was raised here, on this earth, on this land.. My soul resides here, and I am as fiercely loyal too, and protective of what I know is my country as anyone who calls this home….


Thanks for the mail, and apologies for the tirade… perhaps I needed to ramble on for a bit! :-)


Hows things on your end mate? Winter kicking in?

[Bailey Guns]

a more corrupt bunch of thieving, nepotistic , lying useless sacks of shit you would be hard pressed to find… Its quite sickening in fact how these useless bastards are ruining what was so hard fought for… The current crop are just in it for themselves, to line their pockets as much as they can, with little to no thought of tomorrow, or next week, or next month…. And even sadder is how they have completely forgotten their people…

Wait... I need some clarification. Is your friend talking about South Africa or the Obama administration? I'm confused.

[centrarchidae]

Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.
I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.

This.

I'm sitting out the rest of this thread, but you called one very important thing:

Mandela was not in a good position to pick and choose his allies. There were two, maybe three places outside of SA where he could go for support: The "West" (meaning us), the "East" (meaning the communists), and maybe whoever was backing Islamists back then (which weren't a huge movement in the 70's, relatively speaking.)

We never made with the guns or money. I'm going to guess that even if our "good friends" the Saudis were crapping out money for politics, they would have insisted that Mandela convert to Islam or some damn thing. Which leaves...yep, the USSR and/or PRC.

So, should he have turned the support down because of where it came from? And just packed up and went home?

So, yes, Mandela aligning with communists was indeed IMHO a classic case of us missing an opportunity.

[ZERO THEORY]

One of the underlying themes I've been reading here has to do with how savage the black population is after the end of apartheid. About how rape and murder is at miraculous highs and how 95% of whites are murdered by blacks. And many are quick to blame Mandela for this and his ANC for this. But maybe the real blame needs to be placed at the feet of the 50 years of apartheid segregation and human rights violations prior to its end. That no matter who it was that ended Apartheid that this was going to be the the lingering effects of it. That generations of people raised in a culture of hate, discrimination, violence, and economic struggle don't know anything different than to hate, discriminate, and be violent towards those that were responsible.

Maybe we should be talking about how Mandela and his successors, while they're not perfect, might have had a hand in keeping the country together and not into a completely desolate land of savages without any semblance of society. That 50 years of oppression, rape, murder, and torture isn't wiped away clean when a white man frees some black men and says that Apartheid is over.

Maybe South Africa is better off now than it would have been without Mandela because we all know that Apartheid wasn't going to last much longer anyways, and it could have come to a much more violent end.

What's funny is the selective convictions we see every day. Being oppressed and lashing out violently was heroic on the parts of the colonists, Afghans who defied the Taliban, Bosnians/Serbs being attacked on both sides, etc. But when South Africans who were living in 3rd world conditions while whites prospered and herded them into favelas fight back, they're savages and need to be put down. Now, obviously killing white civilians just for being white is not amicable. It is, however understandable.

You're kidding yourself if you think people of ANY race who are being oppressed violently and economically by another race are going to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. I seem to recall innocent Japanese Americans having their businesses, homes, and lives seized by the US government because actual Japanese militants thousands of miles away came and bombed Pearl Harbor.