How does the trust purchase a NFA firearm?

[jackthewall81]

How can my trust purchase a NFA firearm, instead of me (the trustee) purchasing a NFA firearm and transfer it into the trust? Why does this matter and is it only Assignment of Property record keeping complications?

[SA Friday]

It really should be a gun trust to do this. The internal verbiage is different in some areas and it has multiple schedules. A trust is considered a US person (entity) and so can purchase the NFA item. The trust has flexibility built into it that and individually purchased NFA item doesn't. It allows for multiple people to access and use the NFA item, adjustment of who those people are, and flexibility to adjust who gets what at death of the trustee. This last point is huge and simply cannot be overlooked. Probate court for your relatives is a crappy way to go out. If you buy an NFA item and then want to put it into the trust, you have to transfer it and pay another $200 and wait for the Form 4 to clear before it will be in the trust.

As it stands now, Trusts and LLCs are the only avenue around Sheriff sign-off on the Form 4s for purchase. Oblowme's recent bout of executive order douchbaggery will effect trust purchases, but I haven't been able to get the actual wording of what will change in the future and can only work off of rumor. So, instead of passing bad info, I won't discuss what I've heard. Some of it doesn't sound good though.

[Circuits]

Oblowme's recent bout of executive order douchbaggery will effect trust purchases,

It will not only affect trust purchases, but those of corps, partnerships and all other non-person legal entities as well.

The proposal is that any person with access to the NFA items will need to have a CLEO signoff and send in pics and prints, both when the entity acquires new NFA items, and when new persons with access are added to the trust or partnership, or authorized by the corp.

That is the wording of the proposed ruling, "-41P", and it's what we've got to go off of until/unless it gets altered if/when the official rule changes are promulgated.

[SA Friday]

It will not only affect trust purchases, but those of corps, partnerships and all other non-person legal entities as well.

The proposal is that any person with access to the NFA items will need to have a CLEO signoff and send in pics and prints, both when the entity acquires new NFA items, and when new persons with access are added to the trust or partnership, or authorized by the corp.

That is the wording of the proposed ruling, "-41P", and it's what we've got to go off of until/unless it gets altered if/when the official rule changes are promulgated.

I have heard this as well, but I have also heard the LCEO sign-off will go away completely for all sale types vs sign off. In return, all sheriff's receive notification when the transfer is completed. Not being able to find an official copy of the EO, I don't know which is correct. Requiring CLEO sign-off is a problem, and a big one. This gives sheriff's the ability to restrict sales where no law giving them this power exists. NFA was never meant to authorize this power to sheriffs. An EO cannot arbitrarily add this power nor alter the law as it stands. The rest is procedural and EO can alter this. So, I suspect the wording on this EO won't be released until the last minute and I will be very interested in seeing what happens with the CLEO signing.

[asmo]

Have the trust get a bank account. Buy all NFA stuff with said account. Then there is never an issue.

Search around on this forum for other opinions. But in the end, if any entity other than the trust buys the item and then assigns it to the trust, then that entity has transferred the item. That could be problematic in some cases.

[SA Friday]

Have the trust get a bank account. Buy all NFA stuff with said account. Then there is never an issue.

Search around on this forum for other opinions. But in the end, if any entity other than the trust buys the item and then assigns it to the trust, then that entity has transferred the item. That could be problematic in some cases.

Sorry, but this isn't true. The Form 4 dictates the transfer, period. The check can be from a (the) trustee's bank account and there is no issue or problem or legal issue.

[jackthewall81]

Sorry, but this isn't true. The Form 4 dictates the transfer, period. The check can be from a (the) trustee's bank account and there is no issue or problem or legal issue.

So form 4's are acquired and filled through the company that the trustee purchases NFA products from? Or is the form 4 filled independently by the trustee individually?

[SA Friday]

So form 4's are acquired and filled through the company that the trustee purchases NFA products from? Or is the form 4 filled independently by the trustee individually?

Yes. The Form 4 is to transfer from a class III dealer to an individual/trust/LLC. The form is completed by the dealer and then signed by the dealer and the trustee of the trust. Once completed in duplicate, they are attached to a full copy of the trust and the item is added to the Schedule A and reflecting 'pending' as a status. A $200 check is done and the whole thing is mailed off. OR… You find someone who e-files. In that case the info is electronically filed, an electronic copy of the trust is attached, the trustee electronically signs and the $200 is done via credit card. The form 4 has to be done to transfer the item.

How difficult the process is for the customer really comes down to the dealer. Some make the customer feel like it's their problem. Well, it's really the dealers responsibility. I personally went through a pretty shitty initial endeavor into NFA items. I got very little guidance from the dealer, bad information in one instance, charged $50 for changing from an individual to a trust form 4 (ya, they charged me extra to do something required, assholes) and has to self educate to get everything done. I will not let that happen to anyone that I sell NFA items to. Some places sign the form 4 and hand it to you and "see ya!". I do your stuff, you sign and date the form 4s and fill out a check for the ATF if you want it mailed. I do the rest to include mail the package. If you want to e-file, then we e-file the form 4 right there with your credit card and I even scan in your trust.

[asmo]

Sorry, but this isn't true. The Form 4 dictates the transfer, period. The check can be from a (the) trustee's bank account and there is no issue or problem or legal issue.

We have been through this before. You and I have differing opinions. Since the ATF won't make a published ruling on the question - all we have are our opinions to go on.

[SA Friday]

We have been through this before. You and I have differing opinions. Since the ATF won't make a published ruling on the question - all we have are our opinions to go on.

you are giving bad info to newbies. I sell suppressors and SBR's weekly, lately daily. I've had one with a trust bank acct out of all of them. None kicked. Mine isn't from a position of opinion but of experience. Either will work, no need to go through the hoops.