Is your trust legal?

[alucard]

Here is some good reading about Trusts that I feel is important to share with everybody.

I'm still using my quicken willmaker trust, but I know there are people concerned about how legal a quicken will maker trust is.

It all started with this post:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/vi...er=asc&start=0
A guy submits a trust and then it gets denied. Long story short, ATF denied his trust, and he called them up to ask why, they told him, and then he hired a lawyer to look over his trust, and then after the lawyer fixes it, he will submit it back to the ATF.

But 2 lawyers that frequent that site put up some more thoughts on their blogs:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/0...ken-trust.html
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/4/20/...nvalid-u-trust

[alucard]

I called up prince lawyer firm and they said they only work on trusts in PA.

Then I called Guntrustlawyer in FL David Goldman, and they said they would charge $150 to review and talk about your trust, and then if you decide to amend it, the 150 will go toward the 600 cost to amend it.

They seem to be very knowledgeable in the NFA trust area.

[jackmode9316]

600 bux for a trust is kinda steep.

[Graves]

600 bux for a trust is kinda steep.

Yeah....kinda.

[sniper7]

ah, the perfect story for the trust trolls.

something was wrong with his trust. It was wrong from the beginning. the guy is overseas and has his family send the paperwork in for him, he orders the stuff online, they put it together for him.

They approved the tax stamp, but said his trust was invalid. it is plain and simple on the front of the form returned with a approved or disapproved box. so his dealer has fault in this as well as him.
It turns out he says all of his boxes said disapproved. they still gave him the stamp (no idea why), but since he wasn't there to actually read it, he has the stuff.

so that is why he went and spent the money on the lawyers.

He may have not sent in all the paperwork.
He said he had a minor on his trust (not sure if this was part of it)


Talked to my dealer today and he said he has never had a trust sent back denied and almost all of them are from quicken.

Don't be like the liberals and see one problem and assume the worst and try to protect everyone from everything....that is what they are doing with our gun laws...you hate that don't you?

[alucard]

All that is fine, and I too have had nothing but success with my quicken trust for many stamps.

However there are some good point that were brought up, I especially like this one:
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/3/3/c...-gun-nfa-trust

Now not all of this is applicable to you, but there are some very good points in here, the least one should do is read through these and try to amend their own trust: (1-5 are some what meaningless, but 6-10 are pretty good)

QUOTE from article above:
Issues with Quicken

1. No free updates and old language, in order to keep your trust up to date, you need to purchase the software every year and hope they have dealt with changes in your state laws. Quicken seems to be slow at incorporating small or significant changes in the law. Quicken does not let you know what years statutes its language is based upon. Quicken states that when their users report problems they try to fix the program. Unfortunately, their users are not lawyers, and their users never find out about the problems. Their family may find problems when it is to late to make changes, but they have no way to ask, nor to they attempt to ask the beneficiaries to report problems. RESULT: Illegal possession and transfer of a machine gun and forfeiture action by the BATFE.
2. Review your document is the advice given to the users by Quicken. Quicken’s instructions also state to make sure that your document says exactly what you want it to. Although Quicken recommends that you have your document reviewed by an attorney, they neglect to mention that useful advise in their instructions under the review section. Lawyers have differing interpretations, how can a non-lawyer pretend to understand what the outcome of the language they choose will be. RESULT: Incomplete legal advice that could result in Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA Firearm and a forfeiture action by the BATFE.
3. Register your trust with the court? Quicken incorrectly advises that you must register your living trust with your local court. RESULT: No adverse effect.
4. Quicken Will and Trust Maker Doesn’t Provide Legal Advice. The instructions state later that Quicken publishes legal forms that are useful in many situations but they can not tell you whether or not a form is right for you, given your circumstances. Only a lawyer can do this and you should consult a licensed attorney in your state. Moreover, there are NO NFA provisions to inform the trustees of their duties and obligations. RESULT: Illegal possession and transfer of a NFA firearm and forfeiture action by the BATFE.
5. Revocation and Amendments: The Quicken trust allows revocation after one of the grantor’s dies. Typically a revocable trust becomes irrevocable and cannot be changed once a settlor or grantor dies. Quicken does make this distinction when dealing with an amendment and states that the trust cannot be amended once a Grantor dies. I am not sure why or how they allow a trust to be revoked but not amended after the death of a Grantor. RESULT: Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA firearm and forfeiture of the firearm.
6. Income. The Grantors are required to take all income from the trust at least annually. It would seem that this creates assets that are subject to probate and may not be what the individuals desire. RESULT: Added legal expenses at death.
7. Successor Trustee. The successor trustee is chosen automatically but there does not appear to be an ability for someone else to choose a more appropriate trustee at the time one is needed. Quicken does give the last serving trustee the ability to appoint a new trustee if the successor trustee is unable or unwilling to serve. What happens if the trustee ceases serving because of death, who would have the power to appoint a new trustee? Quicken leaves this question unanswered. While a trust will not fail for want of a trustee, the court will have to appoint someone. That individual is unlikely to be familiar with NFA firearms which may result in the Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA Firearm and a forfeiture action by the BATFE.
8. Powers. The Quicken trust states that the trustee has all the authority and powers allowed or conferred on a trustee under Pennsylvania law. They do not tell you what these powers or authorities are or where to find a list of them. Also are they the powers granted when the document was signed, or when one goes to use the powers. While this may not seem important one should consider the substantial changes made in the area of a trustee’s powers within the last 2 years in Pennsylvania.Moreover, Quicken does not advise the trustee on how to purchase, distribute, or possess the items, nor is the power to use the items available to the Trustee under the Quicken Trust. RESULT: Trustee may have insufficient powers and result in the need for litigation and additional attorney fees. Moreover, it may result in Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA Firearm and a forfeiture action by the BATFE.
9. Incapacity: Quicken gives the power to determine incapacity to a person, rather than a court conservator or guardian, or physicians. Under this trust it would be very easy for your children or whom ever you select to declare you incapacitated, remove you a trustee, and appoint a successor trustee of their choice. RESULT: You may lose control of your own trust!
10. Beneficiaries. Although Quicken does appear to do a better job of checking the names of a beneficiary to make sure it is not a grantor, they only look for an exact match and do not question names that are close or provide a warning for any name. I found that it was possible to name yourself as your own beneficiary using a slightly different name, misspelling, or middle initial. This creates several problems and can void the trust. RESULT: Invalid trust resulting in Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA Firearm and a forfeiture action by the BATFE.
11. Survivorship. The quicken trust voids a gift to a beneficiary if that beneficiary dies within 120 hours. This may or may not be the result that you desire. RESULT: Beneficiary does not receive the designated assets even though you desire otherwise.
12. Spendthrift provisions. Quicken does not make a mistake in this area because they do not address the concept. RESULT: Creditors of the beneficiary(ies) can attach to the assets of the trust.
13. Choice of law, venue, arbitration, required notices under the Pennsylvania Trust code. Quicken does not address these, perhaps they are not important. RESULT: Whether that is true depends on your circumstances and what happens in the future, where you live when you die, where your beneficiaries live when you die. Every trust should address these issues including the requirements of the new Pennsylvania Trust code, but if you use Quicken you will not have the benefit of these provisions either.
14. There are many mistakes in the Quicken documents, most disturbing might be some of the things that are not included in a Quicken trust. Quicken gives none of the flexibility to a trust that make it useful for the common person. RESULT: A trustee under a Quicken trust could not do anything, including shooting a NFA firearm owned by the trust, without creating liability to a beneficiary because by default they must act as a prudent trustee. If you have a trust created by Quicken 2009, 2008, 2007 or a previous version, you should have it reviewed by an estate planning lawyer.
15. The trustee is not permitted to use any assets of the trust. Many individuals are surprised by this because of their general lack of knowledge regarding trust laws. Under trust law, if you use the items, the devaluation, is is a breach of the duty that is created under the trust. RESULT: Civil liability of you and other trustees to the beneficiary(ies).
16. Combination of trusts. Quicken and most trusts provide that similar trusts can be combined. Our trust specifies that if this happens the NFA trust will be the surviving trust so that the benefits of the language and flexibility of the powers and duties are not lost. Quicken, on the other hand, would have the newer trust’s provisions empowered. RESULT: Could result in Illegal Possession and Transfer of a NFA Firearm if the trustee is unfamiliar with NFA firearms.
17. You die with debts, a Quicken trust will direct the sale of the NFA items to pay your debts. This is contrary to the desires of most NFA owners- they want to preserve their class III items and pay the debts from other monies if possible.