The Ant and the Grasshopper

[Mtn.man]

Minimum wage was never intended to be a carreer.

It was a start, to motivate someone to establish a Skill. That way they could move up the ladder/workforce and then better themselves.
Anyone wanting to stay in that position and then bitch about not making enough is laughable.

[Kmanbay]

Hound,

Capitalism distributes wealth unequally, it is the nature of things.

If you were getting your house painted and three solid reputable companies using the exact same materials put bids in. Would you pay the one with the highest cost to paint, so he could pay his employees more, or the best value?? I'd hire the best value.

Companies also look for the best value for their money, because it is the prudent thing to do. That sir is capitalism, providing something of value at a better price to the customer.


Being wealthy is not a bad thing. The owner of a business often times puts his/her life savings, takes out loans on their homes and borrow a shit pot of money to start a business. Most businesses don't make it very far, and the owner loses all of his own money. The reason they/business owners should be able to keep their profits is they have more invested and taken risks an employee never will. The ant/farmer/business owner is the same guy. All three produce/contribute something of value.

The grasshopper on the other hand isn't your buddy who works his ass off, it is the guy who stays home playing video games, watching porn and eating Cheetos all day long and gets money from the taxes you buddy and I pay. Then he goes to the free clinic or other government subsidized medical provider and with a worried look asks the doctor why his junk is orange.

Your buddy is an ant because he produces something of value.

As for your comment about how much eggs, butter, bread and milk have become more expensive. Some reasons for this are more taxes being paid across the board; remember when the government raises taxes on a company who really pays the taxes?? The customers do, because the companies pass the cost of doing business on to them. One of the other reasons is the printing of more money. More dollars in circulation equals less value per dollar.



Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

[crays]

Hound,
I believe the point the you are missing, that has everyone in this thread against your posts, is that this is about personal responsibility and character, and not simply receiving .gov assistance.
The "grasshoppers" being referenced in this thread are NOT simply anyone that receives assistance, but those that will not be able to adjust to that assistance being taken away. Your friends, and most of your other examples, do not fit the definition of grasshopper, in relation to this thread. They will, through continued hard work, perserverance (sp?) and fortitude, continue to provide for their families. As a specific example, your "printer" friend, though not wildly rich, has likely instituted some "prepper" (for lack of a better descriptor) type stockpile to look out for his family. Is that a fair assumption? And your wealthy friend, may or may not have. There is not enough about his background and character in your posts to say. If he hasn't, then he should. His monetary wealth will be for naught, should the economy catastrophically collapse, and at that point, his character will be tested, and his status as ant or grasshopper will be somewhat revealed.
The missed point is that this thread is not about disparity in compensation, and whether one receives .gov assistance. This thread is more about the propensity of the "grasshopper" element in this scenario becoming more akin to a swarm of locust, when their "free lunch" disappears.

Just my opinion, after reading this thread through post #32. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack towards Hound. I feel like he just got a little derailed from OP, and some of his valid arguments could flourish in aa different thread, more related to those issues.

[PSS]

If ants would only work for other ants there would't be a problem. Discontent is ugly. It's simply not true that an ambitious citizen of this great country can't get ahead. At times they are held by by greedy people and over regulation aimed at "leveling the playing field". But with sacrifice and hard work success is more than likely. The real problem is the entitlement attitude. We are blessed to live in a country where our poorest citizens are far wealthier than the mass majority of the world. If your family income was over $10,000 you are wealthier than 80% of the world population. If it's $50,000 or more a year, you make more than 99% of the world. That can either make you grateful or unhappy because you resent the other 1%. I would wager that in the terms of justice that the western civilized world is much wealthier than even that.

Regardless of your party affiliation, us Americans have largely fallen prey to the message of discontent that is preached by both sides. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being poor if it's not the result of laziness. And it's a rare case that someone in this great country finds themselves in that position and they don't receive help. Life isn't perfect. Injustice is always present in some form. The fact is it is taken serious here and dealt with. Sure its' justice is served in imperfection. We're human. The very real danger is the division that social activism brings. Hate and discontent is evil regardless of the source. It's ironic that social activism tends to polarize and demonize. I won't give a bum in Grand Junction a penny and that makes me a bad person in a humanist view. But I will and have give my last 100$ to a friend in honest need. And I personally know scores of good Americans who do that. And that is true wealth. It's not measured in dollars and that is a fact. A point mostly missed in materialistic "grasshoppers". I would wager to say the most vile corporate master has done more good than the best "grasshopper".

I am truly thankful that my great grandfather emigrated here shortly after the reds won in Russia. I've done some travelling in this world and this country wins by the measure of commitment to good. Doesn't make us perfect. Perfection is the enemy of good.

Puts soapbox away.

[Gman]

When you have 3rd generation welfare families in society, something is really wrong.

[Skip]

There is no revisionist history here. Free enterprise does not include monopoly's. Just look to the Robber barons and see the eventual end to what you espouse. Government does not have all the answers but niether does unregulated free enterprise/capitalism. There HAS to be a balance. Too much from either side hurts the middle class.

By the same token capitalism can only create wealth it does not distribute it. Yes they create jobs but at the same time only to maximize their own profits. This is not for the common good but for the few at the top. Workers/commoners are paid as little as possible to maintain a workforce. They are then told to be glad they even have a job. The majority of people do not see the benefit of their labor their Lords do. When the balance of wealth is tipped too far to the top 1% is when we see recessions and depressions because the economic pump runs dry due to too much concentration of wealth.

Can you name one "greedy capitalist pig" that didn't get "filthy" rich through the hiring or investment of capital? Just one. NAME JUST ONE!

No, you can't. Capitalists create opportunity for everyone in an economy where all people of various skill level can exchange their labor for pay. This is the most just economic system ever known to man! A system where a man who wants a job can get a job. Compare and contrast to our status quo. Millions who have been priced out of jobs and given up because it's easier to get a check.

Capitalists also invest and create jobs, innovation, and actual economic growth (not inflation called growth). How much economic value have your collectivist platitudes created?

Common good you say? What is the common good? Monsters espousing your ideas, even using your same words, have murdered millions in the name of the common good.

Here we agree. The poor don't pay taxes because they don't have enough to tax. The rich don't pay taxes because they get the laws to provide them loopholes. Rommney lost because he admitted this to the commoners. He said straight out that he thought he was entiltled to millions simply because he was wealthy and the rigged laws say this is OK. That leaves the shrinking middle class to bare the burden of both sides. So why again is it a bad thing for those with more to pay more. Like I said with the 91% taxes, the government did not actually get the money. It forced the top to redistribute it themselves (through good paying jobs) thus creating a large portion of the middle class out of those that came back from WWII.

'They' live not within their means... they live off our means. My buddy on the presses does his best to live within his means and will not retire because he was never paid what his labor was worth. Their is NOTHING ANY of us could do in our lifetime that could be worth a Billion dollars. Esinhower saved our country and was not worth that much. Why? Because it was a team of people's labors that created that won the war and/or created the wealth but only a few who benefit from that wealth. You defend the guy doing nothing and getting 10K in a day while the guy busting his ass will NEVER retire and wonder who is a slave?

You make it sound like successful people don't work. I'd like to show you what my day is like. You probably couldn't handle it. Your ignorant assumptions not only marginalize successful people, but by vilifying them you are distancing yourself from success.

Your buddy makes more than I made for nearly 10 years working my way up with hard work and (practical/real) education. I had constant 70+ hour work weeks and even a few all-nighters--in one 48 hour period I had worked 36 hours. This doesn't include side ventures (many of which failed).

Do you not understand if your buddy ever "makes it" you are laying the groundwork to take his success from him? Thereby holding him down and demoralizing him in the name of "leveling the playing field?"

Some friend he has.

The biggest threat to the middle class isn't the "rich" who create jobs and opportunities. It is the welfare demographic (grasshoppers) that will vote the middle class worker's paycheck away from him. Look at the economics without your agenda. Can you tell me how the 90M Americans who still work (20M+ of which are gov employees) are going to pay off $120T+ in debt and unfunded liabilities? No you can't. That is money spent/pledged for the purpose of leveling the playing field and we can't afford it.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You can take every penny the "rich" have, we'll still be broke. But far worse than that, your ideas would deny us the opportunity to recover because you will have eliminated the natural incentive to produce. You will have spent all stored capital and intellectual property which was 230+ years in the making. It will be gone, people will be hungry and dying. How will you level the playing the field then?

Actually I am pointing out how YOU are setting up your own children for enslavement (unless you really are in that top 1%, which then makes a lot of your statements make a lot more sense) and saying you have ZERO right to chain my kid to yours.

How is wanting my children to keep their paychecks and exchange their labor in a free market enslavement? That is the exact opposite of enslavement.

A MAN WHO DOESN'T OWN HIS LABOR IS A SLAVE.

Say that over and over until you get it. You are proposing slavery. You are defending it will empty emotional arguments, revisionist history, and agenda.

Take my advice; believing in the collectivist lie won't make you wealthy. You might feel better voting someone else down to your level, but that feeling will subside and be replaced with despair as you witness the de-development of the United States that will equally deny everyone opportunity (I guess that's your utopia).

History is full of where your ideas lead. Talk less, read more.

[Hound]

Can you name one "greedy capitalist pig" that didn't get "filthy" rich through the hiring or investment of capital? Just one. NAME JUST ONE!

Madoff, Savings and Loan officers, AIG officers. To name a few.

No, you can't.

ya... Just did. All of them crooks. Plenty where that came from. The biggest difference is between those that got caught and those that did it legally.

Capitalists create opportunity for everyone in an economy where all people of various skill level can exchange their labor for pay. This is the most just economic system ever known to man! A system where a man who wants a job can get a job. Compare and contrast to our status quo. Millions who have been priced out of jobs and given up because it's easier to get a check.

Capitalists also invest and create jobs, innovation, and actual economic growth (not inflation called growth). How much economic value have your collectivist platitudes created?

Common good you say? What is the common good? Monsters espousing your ideas, even using your same words, have murdered millions in the name of the common good.

Getting a bit emotional here but millions have been killed by both governments and capitalists. Keep worshipping at that alter though. Your gods may yet answer you.

You make it sound like successful people don't work. I'd like to show you what my day is like. You probably couldn't handle it. Your ignorant assumptions not only marginalize successful people, but by vilifying them you are distancing yourself from success.

Your buddy makes more than I made for nearly 10 years working my way up with hard work and (practical/real) education. I had constant 70+ hour work weeks and even a few all-nighters--in one 48 hour period I had worked 36 hours. This doesn't include side ventures (many of which failed).

Do you not understand if your buddy ever "makes it" you are laying the groundwork to take his success from him? Thereby holding him down and demoralizing him in the name of "leveling the playing field?"

Some friend he has.

The biggest threat to the middle class isn't the "rich" who create jobs and opportunities. It is the welfare demographic (grasshoppers) that will vote the middle class worker's paycheck away from him. Look at the economics without your agenda. Can you tell me how the 90M Americans who still work (20M+ of which are gov employees) are going to pay off $120T+ in debt and unfunded liabilities? No you can't. That is money spent/pledged for the purpose of leveling the playing field and we can't afford it.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You can take every penny the "rich" have, we'll still be broke. But far worse than that, your ideas would deny us the opportunity to recover because you will have eliminated the natural incentive to produce. You will have spent all stored capital and intellectual property which was 230+ years in the making. It will be gone, people will be hungry and dying. How will you level the playing the field then?

Nice rant.. Little too emtional for me, a little short on fact(being nice about it) but you gave it a good go. Couple of questions...... Who do you think 'holds' all that debt? Where do you think all that wealth actually IS? Do you even know how much we make in a year? Many in the middle class are successful and if you have actually read anything I have written you know that is who I have been wanting to protect.

BTW: 120 trillion ..... Try getting real numbers http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current from those that actually count it, not political functionaries. It is closer to 16-17 trillion. Still a lot of money but not 120T.

How is wanting my children to keep their paychecks and exchange their labor in a free market enslavement? That is the exact opposite of enslavement.

A MAN WHO DOESN'T OWN HIS LABOR IS A SLAVE.

Say that over and over until you get it. You are proposing slavery. You are defending it will empty emotional arguments, revisionist history, and agenda.

Take my advice; believing in the collectivist lie won't make you wealthy.

I have never been part of the "collective" thought as you show yourself to be while believing you are free and yet selling your children into the same 'enslavement'. It is sad you don't even see it, believing yourself to be above others while actually accepting it. I have not talked in emotion, only in personal experience and long debates with many people. Fools don't know they are fools. I am sure you think I am one. I will be capable of retiring shortly and as my signature points out... I look forward to not caring as much as I do today.

You might feel better voting someone else down to your level, but that feeling will subside and be replaced with despair as you witness the de-development of the United States that will equally deny everyone opportunity (I guess that's your utopia).

The funny thing is, you don't know my level. Odds are your not even close. I talk from seeing others suffer and knowing how the rich take advantage of the poor, first hand. When 87 people hold more wealth than 3.5 billion there is something wrong.

History is full of where your ideas lead. Talk less, read more.

yes, yes history is full of where my ideas lead and I have pointed them out while you have stuck to Fox talking points. It shows a lack of reading and understanding history on your part.

[Hound]

If ants would only work for other ants there would't be a problem. Discontent is ugly. It's simply not true that an ambitious citizen of this great country can't get ahead. At times they are held by by greedy people and over regulation aimed at "leveling the playing field". But with sacrifice and hard work success is more than likely. The real problem is the entitlement attitude. We are blessed to live in a country where our poorest citizens are far wealthier than the mass majority of the world. If your family income was over $10,000 you are wealthier than 80% of the world population. If it's $50,000 or more a year, you make more than 99% of the world. That can either make you grateful or unhappy because you resent the other 1%. I would wager that in the terms of justice that the western civilized world is much wealthier than even that.

Regardless of your party affiliation, us Americans have largely fallen prey to the message of discontent that is preached by both sides. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being poor if it's not the result of laziness. And it's a rare case that someone in this great country finds themselves in that position and they don't receive help. Life isn't perfect. Injustice is always present in some form. The fact is it is taken serious here and dealt with. Sure its' justice is served in imperfection. We're human. The very real danger is the division that social activism brings. Hate and discontent is evil regardless of the source. It's ironic that social activism tends to polarize and demonize. I won't give a bum in Grand Junction a penny and that makes me a bad person in a humanist view. But I will and have give my last 100$ to a friend in honest need. And I personally know scores of good Americans who do that. And that is true wealth. It's not measured in dollars and that is a fact. A point mostly missed in materialistic "grasshoppers". I would wager to say the most vile corporate master has done more good than the best "grasshopper".

I am truly thankful that my great grandfather emigrated here shortly after the reds won in Russia. I've done some travelling in this world and this country wins by the measure of commitment to good. Doesn't make us perfect. Perfection is the enemy of good.

Puts soapbox away.

I think I agree with most of this. It is actually that last .1% that take the most advantage of the rest. The issue is just how staggeringly they TAKE from the rest. Those that are just laying around truly are 'grasshoppers'. If you read back through everything I have said it is to those that do work were a predicate for the statements that followed. I think the difference is that I class those that are 'grasshoppers' from both the poor that do not work and the wealthy that work to take so much. The generocity of the average American is amazing and we truly do live in a great country.

[hollohas]

Hound, you refuse to address the point of the original post. People with Individual responsibility who work hard for what they get vs laziness and the entitlement mentality of people who think they deserve everything without working at all.

[hollohas]

those that are 'grasshoppers' from both the poor that do not work and the wealthy that work to take so much. The generocity of the average American is amazing and we truly do live in a great country.

Exactly. It's not about dollar bills.