Legalize Concealed Carry for Soldiers on Military Installations

[muddywings]

His thought was that his ONLY action was to lay there and wait to die??? That is a mindset issue, not a need for a firearm. If all he had available was a gov issue stapler then everyone in that room should have been ready to jump the shooter immediately and kept pounding staples in the shooters head until the threat was gone. That LTs letter, although well written, was nothing more than an armchair QB note saying "well, if would have done something if I had a gun..." That LT should be court marshaled for negligence. The US military has become so pussified that the normal response is not to run towards gunfire but to cower from it. I am disgusted...

I see your take on the letter but likewise i have seen enough libtard emotionally based arguments that I throw up a bit in my mouth now every time I hear them. I'm looking at this letter, looking at the intended target audience and what he is trying to say using the same emotional based argument tactics the other side seems to use so much better. He is pretty much taking the active shooter policies and procedures wrapping them up with a bowtie of emotion and throwing it policy maker's faces.

I read an article, that I should have kept, that stated (hugely paraphrasing of course) that the reason why both sides of the issue can't even have a conversation any more is because one side is using emotion and the other side is using logic. The article recommended using emotionally based arguments to counter emotionally based arguments which is what this guy did.
I wasn't there, I didn't see the his actions, other's actions, the shooters actions, floor layout, etc etc. I'll commend him based on his tactics OF this letter vs his tactics IN this situation as i wasn't there.

As for me, I work in a similar environment and have my own personal mindset that varies from the official policy/procedure and I'm ok with that.

As for what Mickboy said above bout Afghan 2011-I lost a classmate, a guy who I threw back a few beers with back in the day and a guy who worked one floor below mine in the same unit although we never crossed paths. That situation was beyond F-uped and still boils my blood. 'Leaders' should have been fired over that.

[Ronin13]

His thought was that his ONLY action was to lay there and wait to die??? That is a mindset issue, not a need for a firearm. If all he had available was a gov issue stapler then everyone in that room should have been ready to jump the shooter immediately and kept pounding staples in the shooters head until the threat was gone. That LTs letter, although well written, was nothing more than an armchair QB note saying "well, if would have done something if I had a gun..." That LT should be court marshaled for negligence. The US military has become so pussified that the normal response is not to run towards gunfire but to cower from it. I am disgusted...

Ok... you go right on ahead and rush a gun wielding attacker while you're unarmed... let's just see how that works out. Where should I send the flowers? Not everyone is Batman, able to dodge bullets and beat bad guys to a pulp.

[275RLTW]

Ok... you go right on ahead and rush a gun wielding attacker while you're unarmed... let's just see how that works out. Where should I send the flowers? Not everyone is Batman, able to dodge bullets and beat bad guys to a pulp.

I run that exact scenario every class. Want to see the footage with students and Sim guns? More aggression & charging the attacker, armed or unarmed always equals less casualties. EVERY TIME. Its not like I teach this shit for a living...It's even in current DoD active shooter/insider threat POI. Cowering and hiding will never stop the threat. Only being aggressive in response will. And you want to be a cop??? Good luck with that mentality. However, thank you for exemplifying my point about the lack of proper mindset.

[TFOGGER]

The founding fathers would have laughed at the concept of disarming soldiers in garrison, dismissing it as a bad joke.

[Ronin13]

I run that exact scenario every class. Want to see the footage with students and Sim guns? More aggression & charging the attacker, armed or unarmed always equals less casualties. EVERY TIME. Its not like I teach this shit for a living...It's even in current DoD active shooter/insider threat POI. Cowering and hiding will never stop the threat. Only being aggressive in response will. And you want to be a cop??? Good luck with that mentality. However, thank you for exemplifying my point about the lack of proper mindset.

I don't mean it for myself- I mean it for the average person. Fight or flight. Not everyone is trained or mentally prepared to jump in, without equal armament, and attempt to stop an attacker. Even if I'm disarmed, unless a very good opportunity presents itself, I'm probably not going to intervene. Unless my options are dire, such as cower and die, or fight and possibly die, I'd prefer to get the hell out of there and live- if I'm unarmed, that is.

[275RLTW]

I don't mean it for myself- I mean it for the average person. Fight or flight. Not everyone is trained or mentally prepared to jump in, without equal armament, and attempt to stop an attacker. Even if I'm disarmed, unless a very good opportunity presents itself, I'm probably not going to intervene. Unless my options are dire, such as cower and die, or fight and possibly die, I'd prefer to get the hell out of there and live- if I'm unarmed, that is.

They were US Military!!! Not average people. It is their job to face the enemy, regardless of MOS. They failed to utilize their training to not freeze and hide in fear. The LT failed to act as an officer in the US Army and protect those under his command and do as he was trained to do. He was provided with active shooter training as well as combatives/H2H in basic training. He failed to do as he was paid to do because he "didn't have his firearm." A prime example of the weakening of our military...


ronin, if you will only act IF you have "equal armament" when innocent people are being slaughtered then you need to choose a new profession or rethink your training priorities and objectives (as well as your manhood).

[Ronin13]

They were US Military!!! Not average people. It is their job to face the enemy, regardless of MOS. They failed to utilize their training to not freeze and hide in fear. The LT failed to act as an officer in the US Army and protect those under his command and do as he was trained to do. He was provided with active shooter training as well as combatives/H2H in basic training. He failed to do as he was paid to do because he "didn't have his firearm." A prime example of the weakening of our military...


ronin, if you will only act IF you have "equal armament" when innocent people are being slaughtered then you need to choose a new profession or rethink your training priorities and objectives (as well as your manhood).

I'm just guessing here, but he never stated his MOS- so I can't speak to his training... the combatives training everyone gets in Basic (not sure about Infantry OSUT though) is a joke. I could do some basic moves right out of BCT, it wasn't until one of our NCOs went to Level 3 combatives training and took some outside the military training that we started doing weekly combatives/hand-to-hand training that I learned actual usable tactics. They Army doesn't see a huge need for all of it's troops- especially non-combat MOS soldiers- to know anything but a basic form of hand-to-hand, that IRL probably won't do you any favors. The Army is not trained to respond to a threat without the use of arms and force, unarmed against an active shooter and they might as well be average people with a little extra training in firearms, that's it. And I never said I'd only act if I had equal armament, I said unless an opportunity to act presented itself, I'm not going in gung ho and becoming another victim. That's why cops carry guns, otherwise what good are they if they become another victim? Questioning my manhood because I would be reluctant to commit suicide by gunman, okay, whatever. Now, if I was unarmed, encountered an active shooter, ideally I'd get to an advantageous position to utilize the hand-to-hand training I've received, but if that wasn't possible what good would I do in adding to the number of people the paramedics and/or coroner had to deal with?

[275RLTW]

Even if I'm disarmed, unless a very good opportunity presents itself, I'm probably not going to intervene.

The Army is not trained to respond to a threat without the use of arms and force, unarmed against an active shooter and they might as well be average people with a little extra training in firearms, that's it.
​​it's in current active shooter/insider threat POI as I mentioned before



And I never said I'd only act if I had equal armament, I said unless an opportunity to act presented itself, I'm not going in gung ho and becoming another victim.
​​see your quote above. You're trying to backpedal now.


That's why cops carry guns, otherwise what good are they if they become another victim? Questioning my manhood because I would be reluctant to commit suicide by gunman, okay, whatever. Now, if I was unarmed, encountered an active shooter, ideally I'd get to an advantageous position to utilize the hand-to-hand training I've received, but if that wasn't possible what good would I do in adding to the number of people the paramedics and/or coroner had to deal with?

​​based upon all the scenarios I've run over the last several years, you would most likely reduce the number of casualties and motivate others to join in stopping the threat by not being easy targets. Active shooters are cowards and are not looking for a fight. Every time the fight (armed or unarmed) has been brought to an AS/IT, they've stopped their actions and usually kill themselves.

[splogan]

I live in base housing and I have some guns.

[davsel]