Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

[Aloha_Shooter]

‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............

If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner.

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

That's out of 47 rounds to start the fight.

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

Anyone remember the old "Reading Is Fundamental" commercials? Reading comprehension FTW.

[Dave]

One reason I carry a .380 with a 15 rd mag, extra in the chamber and am getting a concealed mag pouch so I can carry an extra mag with me. All in hopes that the only time I remove my pistol from my waist is to put it in the box on my nightstand.

[WETWRKS]

This is why I chose the Fiveseven. Lots of ammo per mag. When I carry 1 round in the chamber, 1 mag in the gun, and 2 spare mags...I have 61 rounds at my disposal.

Then consider that 1 mag is Leo/Military ammo and 1 mag is high power aftermarket stuff...I have 40 rounds that should clear kevlar. If trends continue we will see more and more bad guys wearing kevlar making this more and more what you will need to stop them.

[DocMedic]

I can only speak from a military mindset of being shot at. But at least for me I can relate with what was said. It's not as simple as "slow down and aim better" Specially when on the other end is a guy who is doing everything in his power to kill you. Yes we can argue to the ground about training in proper fundamentals in all situation, but natural instinct will always take over first before cognitive thinking. Situation Awareness is the most important in my opinion. Your not going to be able to do much if your hit, and sometimes (from a military standpoint) supressive fire and getting into controlling position is the better option, this will help change the variables into your favor were training / cognitive thinking can take over. From my experience I've seen more soldiers get hit from random acts of fire when there trying to place well aim shots, and I believe this happens for two reason, one they tunnel vision and lose situation awareness. Basically they got rounds skipping inches from their head and they rather take the time to aim rather then take cover. and Two they lost their grasp of their position. Using a wall is great for cover but is it always? when its only a few inches thick and is made of mud?

Basically what he did was just tha,t try to change the variable of the gun fight by making the perp come to him IE look under the vehicle and this was the opportunity he needed to recollect himself to be able to do what he trained for.

[CHA-LEE]

I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

[Ronin13]

I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

[KestrelBike]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Forget the screaming part, he needs a gang banger advancing on him with gunfire. I guarantee he's going to shoot not aiming for headshots, but going for a general hemisphere. Oh, and first he's gotta have the mental wherewithal to draw his weapon in the first place.

[CHA-LEE]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Your suggested challenge isn't much of a challenge. Sounds like less of a challenge than a single USPSA pistol match stage which I attend pretty much every weekend. I know I can quickly draw and effectively hit a head size target at whatever distance is needed under pressure. I can do this because I practice my ass off so it can be done. Not many gun owners hone their pistol craft skills to this level for whatever weak excuse they can come up with. Its easier to ignore the lack in skill and try to offset the deficit by carrying more ammo. To each their own.

Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent. I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.

[Bailey Guns]

I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.

Did you not read the part where the officer said this?

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.”

I don't care what you do in USPSA...getting a better than 50% hit ratio on a moving target that's shooting back at you while you're moving as well is pretty impressive. I'd also say his training as a SWAT officer and sniper is at least as rigorous as USPSA training.

[blacklabel]

Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent.

Says he isn't trolling, proceeds to troll some more.

Can we have you shoot a match while I shoot paintballs at you?