Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

[Jer]

Everything about this thread just makes me think of Gabe Suarez's training. He does force on force simunitions training to the maximum extent possible. I don't like everything about him, but I do like his training and gunfighting tactics and techniques.

Fuck that guy! He's a POS idiot.

[osok-308]

Fuck that guy! He's a POS idiot.

Tell us how you really feel about him.

[Jer]

Okay? Care to explain? Do you think that he has never had a good idea?

Yeah, he's the biggest douche bag I've ever come across on an internet forum and that's going back to the 90's so that's a pretty high honor in a sea of DB's. I don't attack people personally often on forums but this guy earned every opinion I have of him. He attacked me personally on another forum years ago and he's one of the most unreasonable and arrogant douche bags I've ever had the misfortune of talking to. I don't give two shits who's ideas he's ripped off and claimed to be his own because he's an insufferable prick and I wish only the worst for him in life because he's a special kind of asshole that deserves nothing but the worst this life has to offer him. Like I said, fuck him!

[Jer]

So in summary, he's an asshole because you think he's an asshole? Okay, Whatever. I think the training style he offers is valuable. If you don't like it then don't give him your money. I said upfront that I don't like everything about him, but SOME of the things he says are valuable.

No he's an asshole because he's an asshole. He knows it and doesn't care. I don't care how good you think his ideas are because he's a douche and I'm sure you can find better ideas for less money anywhere else on earth.

[CHA-LEE]

Its as simple as this.....

No Practice = No Competency

Practice = Competency

More Practice = More Competency

All of the arguments against practicing, or competing in action shooting style shooting sports (USPSA, IPSC, 3Gun, Steel Challenge, ICORE, IDPA, etc) to perfect your pistol craft skills not being "REAL WORLD" skills that can be levered under stress is horse shit. That would be like saying that an MMA fighter is going to magically lose all of his trained fighting skills if he gets involved in a fight on the street. Or a race car driver not being able to leverage his trained driving skills to react to a defensive driving situation while driving home from dinner. Or a competition swimmer not being able to leverage their swimming skills then they get tossed into the water unexpectedly. When the proverbial shit hits the fan everyone reverts to their base level of training or competency with a given skill. If you choose to practice a "Center of mass" competency in shooting accuracy then sure, taking a head shot quickly instead of a center of mass shot may seem like an unreasonable action to perform under stress. If you practice to a point of being able to take a head shot competently, then doing so becomes a valid option to leverage if need be.

I also want to point out the FACT that when police departments or military seek out expert gun craft training they are usually obtaining this from trainers who have extensive experience in the competition shooting sports. The world and national caliber competition shooters are the ones that are usually leveraged for improving police or military gun craft skills.

As for a response to the "You have a false sense of skill or an inflated Ego" comments. If you really knew me, that couldn't be further from the truth. I am a humble guy who chooses to speak out on what I DO know about. I know how to handle and shoot a pistol with an effectiveness that not many other shooters will even be able to fathom is possible much less do. That fact may sound like an egotistical response, but I have earned the right to state that fact because I have put in the time and effort to hone my pistol craft to that level. Anyone can achieve the same level of pistol craft competency if they simply put in the time and effort to do it.

[HoneyBadger]

Its as simple as this.....

No Practice = No Competency

Practice = Competency

More Practice = More Competency

You are exactly right! Perfect practice makes for a perfect performance while poor practice makes for a poor performance.

Practicing USPSA will make you better at USPSA. It will not necessarily make you better at shooting through a windshield at a criminal who is shooting at you (essentially ambushing you) with the intent to kill you (while you are trying not to shoot an innocent bystander or cause collateral damage in the neighborhood where you stopped) while he is advancing upon your vehicle that you have no good escape from immediately following an erratic and dangerous high-speed chase.

I don't think I read a single comment in this thread advising people to not practice as much as they can afford to. IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun, prairie dog matches, etc are all wonderful training tools, but your training can only take you so far.

[Ronin13]

Cha-lee- I didn't hear anyone speaking out or arguing against practice. The point myself and others were making was simply this:
Just because one is good at competitive shooting, doesn't mean he'll do great under a real life shooting situation where his life is on the line.
And actually, there have been studies that boxing/MMA fighters don't fare well all the time in street fights, simple explanation: on the street there are no rules and these fighters are taught to act within the rules. Now that's not saying that they don't do well in bad situations, just like the other examples you gave, they all have their merits, and really can't be compared to competitive shooting versus real life firefight. I've seen it first hand (well kind of)- hardcore, take-no-shit-break-things infantry, super soldiers at the range and MOUT training, expert rifle qualification- go into real combat, with real bullets coming back at them, and they kick up more dirt than a tornado at a construction site. They had the "real world" skills, they just reacted a bit differently when adrenaline and all the physiological symptoms came into play. That's all I'm saying. I'm not doubting your skills as a shooter, you're good, real good, but when bullets come back at you and you are in fear for your life, you might react differently. I've never been in a shootout where I've been in fear for my life, but I know enough that I won't react near-perfect like at the range... I just hope I react well enough to hit the target and come out of it alive.

[condoor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0wYqRX7Gs Race shirt, race gun, race mags, standing square to your target in ideal weather conditions on a flat range shooting head size poppers - pretty much IDEAL conditions, but yet I still count six misses. Yet you have the nerve to critique an officer involved shooting that occurred after a high speed pursuit, in full duty gear, in a dynamic environment and your confused as to why people think you have an ego??

[CHA-LEE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0wYqRX7Gs Race shirt, race gun, race mags, standing square to your target in ideal weather conditions on a flat range shooting head size poppers - pretty much IDEAL conditions, but yet I still count six misses. Yet you have the nerve to critique an officer involved shooting that occurred after a high speed pursuit, in full duty gear, in a dynamic environment and your confused as to why people think you have an ego??

Yes, failing is part of learning and competing. Thus why I keep diligent in practicing the things I have challenges with and learning what I have challenges with is best discovered under the pressure involved with competition shooting. If I had an over inflated ego why would I even post a video of me failing for everyone to see? It would be much easier to only post the stage runs where I knocked it out of the park to pump up my ego, but that isn't who I am. I use these videos to observe what skills are failing so I can formulate a training plan to fix them. If I only posted the stage runs where I was executing my skills properly then it wouldnt be a very useful training tool would it?

The stage in question is a plate rack of 6 inch plates set at about 30 yards down range. This is by no means, an "Easy" shooting challenge but it was a fun stage to shoot at the match. The majority of my misses were only about 1 - 2 inches low hitting the frame of the rack just below the plates by the evidence of the dirt being kicked up just below the plate rack. When I got back home after this match, I setup this same shooting challenge in practice and shot it using different points of aim on the plates and different types of trigger presses to figure out what the best solution is for this type of target scenario. The way I see it, this video of me failing to hit the plates was a perfect tool in identifying a weakness in my shooting skills, formulating a training plan to over come the issue, and incorporating the solution into my future practice sessions. I could care less if others choose to leverage it as a "See how much you suck....." point they are trying to make. For the "Haters", I would suggest you setup this exact same shooting challenge the next time you are at the range for practice and see if you can shoot the plates one for one at an aggressive pace. After you give it a try and eat a big slice of humble pie you may want to rethink your judgement of others performance in the shooting challenge in question.

[condoor]

Yes, failing is part of learning and competing. Thus why I keep diligent in practicing the things I have challenges with and learning what I have challenges with is best discovered under the pressure involved with competition shooting. If I had an over inflated ego why would I even post a video of me failing for everyone to see? It would be much easier to only post the stage runs where I knocked it out of the park to pump up my ego, but that isn't who I am. I use these videos to observe what skills are failing so I can formulate a training plan to fix them. If I only posted the stage runs where I was executing my skills properly then it wouldnt be a very useful training tool would it?

The stage in question is a plate rack of 6 inch plates set at about 30 yards down range. This is by no means, an "Easy" shooting challenge but it was a fun stage to shoot at the match. The majority of my misses were only about 1 - 2 inches low hitting the frame of the rack just below the plates by the evidence of the dirt being kicked up just below the plate rack. When I got back home after this match, I setup this same shooting challenge in practice and shot it using different points of aim on the plates and different types of trigger presses to figure out what the best solution is for this type of target scenario. The way I see it, this video of me failing to hit the plates was a perfect tool in identifying a weakness in my shooting skills, formulating a training plan to over come the issue, and incorporating the solution into my future practice sessions. I could care less if others choose to leverage it as a "See how much you suck....." point they are trying to make. For the "Haters", I would suggest you setup this exact same shooting challenge the next time you are at the range for practice and see if you can shoot the plates one for one at an aggressive pace. After you give it a try and eat a big slice of humble pie you may want to rethink your judgement of others performance in the shooting challenge in question.

I wasn't calling you out on your shooting ability. You're a good shooter, and yes that's a hard stage. I've shot USPSA - it's a fun game.

Your hit percentage on the poppers was 50%, and yet none of those were through a windshield? Weird. Maybe you just needed to slow down, execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation, and get the hits the first time. Oh wait it's a hard stage - I forgot. You getting the point yet???

"Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. " Wow
"Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at." Now that is dumb.
"He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation. " - Based on your tireless weekends at the USPSA match. Awesome.

Plink away partner.