Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

[KestrelBike]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Forget the screaming part, he needs a gang banger advancing on him with gunfire. I guarantee he's going to shoot not aiming for headshots, but going for a general hemisphere. Oh, and first he's gotta have the mental wherewithal to draw his weapon in the first place.

[cofi]

I'm getting 60 yard hail Mary thread flashbacks

[cstone]

IDPA and IPSC would be more realistic if it was a two-way match. Rather than targets, they could have competitors beginning on opposite ends of the course and moving toward each other while engaging one another. Winner gets to move on to the next match.

Luck or providence is always present. The best can be beaten by the lucky. It sort of falls under "Life isn't fair."

[ray1970]

IDPA and IPSC would be more realistic if it was a two-way match. Rather than targets, they could have competitors beginning on opposite ends of the course and moving toward each other while engaging one another. Winner gets to move on to the next match.

Note to self: don't let cstone run a match or design stages for a match.

[Bailey Guns]

I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice.

You forgot the part where the head was moving quickly and shooting back at you. You also forgot the part about the head not having to worry about anything and you having to worry about all sorts of shit.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit.

The officer was obviously aiming. That's why he got a total of 17 hits on a moving target that was shooting back at him and, at least for a while, behind good cover and/or concealment. He still managed to make 3 head shots on the guy while looking under a car. I'd say that's pretty impressive. Furthermore, almost every reputable instructor or school will teach shooting for the center of the torso when possible. Why? Because it's easier to hit a bigger target than it is a smaller target. Especially a target that, once again, is moving and shooting back at you. You can see it however you want. Almost the entire shooting community on the entire planet sees it differently.

One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

Correct. That's why everyone teaches you to initially shoot at the torso when possible. It produces more consistent results.

I think I'll echo jhood's words here and listen to the guy who's been there and done that and survived over the silly musings of a keyboard USPSA commando.

[<MADDOG>]

[ZERO THEORY]

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and everything else is just gravy.

If I shoot you in the aortic valve, it won't matter whether I used 9mm or .45. Same can be said for a bullet through the brain stem. Conversely, if I miss and hit you with a flesh wound to the abdomen, there's nothing that the larger .45 is going to do that the 9mm didn't. Apply the bullet to the proper place as many times as is necessary.

[Irving]

Haha, this is funny.


Serious question. Why did he go prone behind the tree? I don't have a ton of experience, but I know I can't shoot for crap laying down. I realize it worked to his advantage in the end, but if you shoot someone 14 times and they are still up running around, I doubt that laying down would cross my mind.

[Great-Kazoo]

Haha, this is funny.


Serious question. Why did he go prone behind the tree? I don't have a ton of experience, but I know I can't shoot for crap laying down. I realize it worked to his advantage in the end, but if you shoot someone 14 times and they are still up running around, I doubt that laying down would cross my mind.

It's called shooting from cover. Laying prone, in his case enabled steadier shots. Also forcing the perp to offer potential head shot by looking under car, which did happen.

[CHA-LEE]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Your suggested challenge isn't much of a challenge. Sounds like less of a challenge than a single USPSA pistol match stage which I attend pretty much every weekend. I know I can quickly draw and effectively hit a head size target at whatever distance is needed under pressure. I can do this because I practice my ass off so it can be done. Not many gun owners hone their pistol craft skills to this level for whatever weak excuse they can come up with. Its easier to ignore the lack in skill and try to offset the deficit by carrying more ammo. To each their own.

Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent. I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.