Quote Originally Posted by Pancho Villa View Post
Christianity is a fairly pacifistic religion as it stands. Turn the other cheek and the entire altruist morality fairly well implies that defending yourself is at least frowned upon.

Medieval europe was when the Christian faith was taken the most seriously...you did not see monks (Templars excluded, and anyone in the Templars who fought could only be a lay person, not to mention being disbanded for buggery) wearing swords, but they did renounce the "corrupt" material world for a life of contemplation of God and self-denial.

To be prepared to fight for your property and life, both of which should be worth little to you if you are an ideal Christian, seems to be a little odd.

You can take isolated bits of scripture to try and support the idea that Christianity isn't contrary to the ideas of self-defense and come up with some good ones, but the fact remains that the entire character that Christianity encourages and the long history of Christian thought (the vow of poverty was actually originally meant to be a vow renouncing the use of weapons, and is one of the key ideals of a man renouncing the 'corrupt' material world in order to be closer to God) idealizes the pacifist and sees the warrior as a necessary evil at best.

That said, Christianity cannot be practiced consistently in any man who wishes to live long on this earth. So a Christian is welcome, as far as I'm concerned, to pick and choose which parts of their faith to follow.

Of course, I'm an atheist (though I did take great interest in Christianity earlier in life, and studied scripture and the history of the church,) but I am trying to be objective in my analysis vis a vie weapons and Christianity. Historically it doesn't really fit with much Christian thought, but today's flavor of Christianity has a heavy pagan (Aristotlean, thanks to Thomas Aquinas, who is also largely responsible for pulling humanity out of the dark ages) influences. Christianity has had a lot more Aristotlean influence than most religious scholars are willing to admit.
I would argue that what you've been taught is "Churchianty" rather that true Christianity...

The churches that you see are run by men, and are therefore subject to the flaws of man... my personal faith is much closer to what you'd find from John Eldredge.. not that I worship him- just that I agree with his viewpoints.. http://ransomedheart.com/

I've been trying to get this message out within my church, and would love to sit & talk with anyone about it... I'm not a "bible thumper", I'm not into forcing anything down anyone's throat... this has just made sense to me personally.. My father is an Atheist, and I was Agnostic for most of my life... it took my Mother's death to make me seek a more spiritual purpose to my life... but none if it made full sense until I heard this message...

your viewpoints are very close to mine- even with regards to the church in general... I believe that most organized religion has it's own agenda.... that is in many times in conflict with God.... which means at least some of it is influenced by other sources...

Christ himself was not a pacifist .. how would somebody that was completely pacifistic get crucified? His actions were completely in the face of the Pharisees, so much so that they wanted him DEAD.. they told him not to heal on the sabbath, and he chastised them... and did it again, right in front of them.. I've personally wondered if "turn the other cheek" is a form of defiance... (that didn't hurt, try the other cheek)

When Jesus confronted those at the temple that were participating in commerce with in the temple- he "made a whip" and cleared the temple by force.. does this sound like the actions of a pacifist? He was tempered in his anger, but was far from non-confrontational...

I believe that the biblical position of protecting yourself personally may be open to debate, but when it comes to protecting the innocent, I think there's no question that even violence is not only condoned, but encouraged if required...

The Templars were well known for their selfish desires of power... at some point it stopped being about God, and started being about themselves....
using violence to FORCE people to believe something (the crusades) is also a false belief that has lead to many deaths... and is not biblical, IMHO...

I would hope that in the end, you don't let the fault of men to come between you & your relationship with God... there are some who would be pleased with that..

any belief in God is going to be short lived, if you don't believe that God has an enemy that is poised to "steal, kill & destroy" all that would believe in him..