ATF Sig brace updated ruling.

[Jer]

Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.

We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.

The ATF has too much time on its hands.

Agreed.

Did you not read his disclaimer at the beginning of his comment?

Go to any number of the "other" sights, and you will see the hate for the sig brace from the NFA guys.

My problem with the brace stems from the fact that everyone KNEW they were riding a very thin edge between letter of the law and spirit of the law. To me, this sort of thing generally results in a knee-jerk reaction that ends up costing us more rights in the long run. We're talking about an entity that can seemingly make things illegal with a simple letter so why rattle that cage? Why push it in this way? In the name of all that is holy why in the fuck are people still writing them letters to get clarification on shit? That almost never works out in our favor. I'm of the mindset that this shit should all be legal anyway so unless the ATF states something specifically isn't allowed I operate under the guise that it's legal until stated otherwise. There appears to be an entire other group out there who thinks all of their rights are controlled by the ATF and feel the need to ask for permission in writing which tends to bring attention to something we really don't want attention brought to. Getting these NFA items legalized w/o hoops isn't going to be done with letter writing or pushing the envelope it's going to be done at the voting polls & political establishments. This idea that we're going to enact any positive change by writing letters or trying to gain profit on some legalese is silly. This is my reason for my dislike of the Sig brace. That and it looks like an abortion taped to a rifle. I also dislike 'pistol' AR15's because I think they look silly too so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[hatidua]

Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.

We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.

The ATF has too much time on its hands.

Apparently I'm from Boulder and cannot type in a manner that clearly conveys my message to everyone. Some got it, some didn't. That's my mistake, not yours.

[Irving]

My problem with the brace stems from the fact that everyone KNEW they were riding a very thin edge between letter of the law and spirit of the law. To me, this sort of thing generally results in a knee-jerk reaction that ends up costing us more rights in the long run. We're talking about an entity that can seemingly make things illegal with a simple letter so why rattle that cage? Why push it in this way? In the name of all that is holy why in the fuck are people still writing them letters to get clarification on shit? That almost never works out in our favor. I'm of the mindset that this shit should all be legal anyway so unless the ATF states something specifically isn't allowed I operate under the guise that it's legal until stated otherwise. There appears to be an entire other group out there who thinks all of their rights are controlled by the ATF and feel the need to ask for permission in writing which tends to bring attention to something we really don't want attention brought to. Getting these NFA items legalized w/o hoops isn't going to be done with letter writing or pushing the envelope it's going to be done at the voting polls & political establishments. This idea that we're going to enact any positive change by writing letters or trying to gain profit on some legalese is silly. This is my reason for my dislike of the Sig brace. That and it looks like an abortion taped to a rifle. I also dislike 'pistol' AR15's because I think they look silly too so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

This is exactly the stance hatidua already took.

[hatidua]

To clear up anything I have typed in this thread so far, I own BOTH a registered SBR as well as a Sig Brace on an AR pistol. I cannot figure why there is so much animosity by those that claim to be 2A supporters for another method of launching lead at a target. This is akin to Purdey shotgun owners not having "any use" for AR-15's because they don't pheasant hunt with them.

Divided, we surely fall.

[cstone]

Why do we have choices? Because it's 'Merica!

Feckless bureaucracy is the enemy of freedom, variety and ingenuity.

I have a dream. That one day the legality of my firearms will not be determined by the position they are held but by their status protected by our Constitution.

[mutt]

I cannot figure why there is so much animosity by those that claim to be 2A supporters for another method of launching lead at a target.

Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.

Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.

This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.

And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.

[Great-Kazoo]

Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.

Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.

This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.

And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.

BRAVO, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Irving]

If one changed but a few words in this thread, this could easily be a citizenship debate.

[Akyla]

Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.

Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.

This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.

And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.

Well said. Thank you for going to the effort to write that out. MOLON LABE

[roberth]

It appears that BATFE has reversed this ruling.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp...al-3.21.17.pdf

Or maybe they're just making some clarifications.